Let's talk about war novels - I've enjoyed Heinrich Böll's novellas The Train Was on Time, A Soldier's Legacy, and especially And Where Were You, Adam? which are uncomplicated but nuanced despatches from the German side of the various WWII fronts.
Ford Madox Ford's tetralogy Parade's End, especially the second book, is a brilliant, brilliant book about WWI - both the war itself and the British social / cultural context.
Waugh's Put Out More Flags is a very funny novel about the phony war - Orwell's Coming Up For Air deals with the same period in a more sombre and regretful fashion.
The War of the End of the World by Mario Vargas Llosa is long and exhaustive but a fascinating account of a war most non-Brazilians know little of, the 1897 Conselheiro insurrection of Canudos, when a group of anti-government religious fanatics defied the authority of the newly-formed Republic.
There are a few superb chapters in Stendhal's The Charterhouse of Parma where we follow the hero as he staggers cluelessly amid the carnage of Waterloo, which I think could be read on their own. The novel as a whole is very up and down.
Just finished The Time of Light by Gunnar Kopperud, which deals with the Eastern Front in a narrative framed by the Armenian-Azeri conflict of the nineties. An interesting idea but didn't quite come together I thought - should have been twice the length, or half the length.
Last year I read Pilgermann by Russell Hoban, which is a tale of medieval brutality (the crusades actually, but from an everyman's perspective), with a large dose of mysticism thrown into the bloody swill.
Flaubert's Salammbo has even more buckets of gore, along with every kind of grotesquerie and exoticism. Ludicrously over the top but I liked it.
Perhaps the best war book I've ever read is the 17th century German picaresque novel Simplicissimus, dealing with the Thirty Years War (but really of course all wars) - here's my Librarything review: An amazing book. A picaresque study of futility, fidelity and the innocent abroad; a mournful account of the irredeemable brutishness of man entwined with a comic catalogue of his follies. Very few books articulate the bewilderment, the unanswerableness of war as well as this one does. And there are flights of fantasy which take you wholly by surprise.
And then there's Gravity's Rainbow... a war book by virture of being an everything book.
On my to-be-read pile I have Livy's account of the Punic Wars which I found in the garbage room of my apartment building... it's very long.
What other great war novels are there? Let's have 'em.
War novels
Wow. I've read very few of those, k-j. Couldn't be doing with Gravity's Rainbow at all.
Not wanting to be too obvious, but War and Peace is very good about war. And peace, to be honest, as well.
Simplicissimus is a shocker of a book. Yes, it's good, but brutish. And not short. There's a great history of the Thirty Years War, as well, by C. V. Wedgwood.
How about Thucydides' Peloponnesian War? In fact, how about The Iliad? So many gruesome ways to die in battle, "whereon his soul went out of him and flew down to the house of Hades, lamenting its sad fate that it should enjoy youth and strength no longer."
At the time, I thought Catch 22 was a great war book, but it was the 70s. And I was a teenager.
Not wanting to be too obvious, but War and Peace is very good about war. And peace, to be honest, as well.
Simplicissimus is a shocker of a book. Yes, it's good, but brutish. And not short. There's a great history of the Thirty Years War, as well, by C. V. Wedgwood.
How about Thucydides' Peloponnesian War? In fact, how about The Iliad? So many gruesome ways to die in battle, "whereon his soul went out of him and flew down to the house of Hades, lamenting its sad fate that it should enjoy youth and strength no longer."
At the time, I thought Catch 22 was a great war book, but it was the 70s. And I was a teenager.
I've not read War and Peace - I started it when I was about 17, probably just because it was a byword, but didn't get very far.
The Iliad and Catch-22, how could I forget them? You could almost just read those two and not have to read anything else about war - Homer and Heller have got it all covered between them.
I'll look up the Wedgwood book on the Thirty Years' War, thanks - I've been wanting to learn more about it. The impression from Simplicissimus is of an uncommonly byzantine conflict, even by the standards of Central Europe.
The Iliad and Catch-22, how could I forget them? You could almost just read those two and not have to read anything else about war - Homer and Heller have got it all covered between them.
I'll look up the Wedgwood book on the Thirty Years' War, thanks - I've been wanting to learn more about it. The impression from Simplicissimus is of an uncommonly byzantine conflict, even by the standards of Central Europe.
fine words butter no parsnips
I haven't read much in the way of war novels outside of science fiction and fantasy, the latter of which I don't read as a genre, just some Pratchett and well, who hasn't read Tolkien? The Uplift, Ender and Dune chronicles are probably the best I've read in terms of war books in sf. Uplift especially.
Give me a title. I'll read it.
EDIT - I mean, recommend a good one to start with and I'll put it on the list.
Give me a title. I'll read it.
EDIT - I mean, recommend a good one to start with and I'll put it on the list.
There's only one rule in street and bar fights: maximum violence, instantly. (Martin Amis, "Money")
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John G
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My best war novel is The Good Soldier Svejk and His Fortunes in the World War by Jaroslav Hasek.
A bit like Catch 22 in that it exposes the pointlessnhess and absurdity of war. A great read.
However my best war author is Andy McNabbm why he hasn't won awards I do not know
A bit like Catch 22 in that it exposes the pointlessnhess and absurdity of war. A great read.
However my best war author is Andy McNabbm why he hasn't won awards I do not know
Last edited by John G on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say 'I want to see the manager.
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John G
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Yeah McNabb writes with a verve and a passion that is much maligned.
He is like the Ross Kemp of writing (if you know what I mean?)
He is like the Ross Kemp of writing (if you know what I mean?)
After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say 'I want to see the manager.
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brianedwards
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I thought this was a serious thread till I came across the name Andy McNab . . . . now I am not so sure . . .
Still, Slaughterhouse Five is pretty flawless.
Catch 22 is the most over-rated book of the 20th century.
Gravity's Rainbow is pure genius. More poetry than prose perhaps, hence it's apparent inaccessibility.
Andy Mcnab? Seriously?
B.
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Still, Slaughterhouse Five is pretty flawless.
Catch 22 is the most over-rated book of the 20th century.
Gravity's Rainbow is pure genius. More poetry than prose perhaps, hence it's apparent inaccessibility.
Andy Mcnab? Seriously?
B.
~
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John G
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I know I'm joking about Andy McNab but I'm not to sure about k-J.
After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say 'I want to see the manager.
Catch-22 is a fucking brilliant, hilarious novel - I've read it twice but both times when I was young - 16 and 21-ish I think - so it's possible I won't like it as much next time.
Slaughterhouse Five, I liked that too but again I was young. All the Vonnegut I've read since has contributed to my impression of him as a snob with a superiority complex.
Gravity's Rainbow is brilliant but I like V even more: now I think of it the Malta section might be the best war fiction I've read.
Have you read much Andy McNab, Brian? He's the most underrated author of the 20th century.
Slaughterhouse Five, I liked that too but again I was young. All the Vonnegut I've read since has contributed to my impression of him as a snob with a superiority complex.
Gravity's Rainbow is brilliant but I like V even more: now I think of it the Malta section might be the best war fiction I've read.
Have you read much Andy McNab, Brian? He's the most underrated author of the 20th century.
fine words butter no parsnips
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John G
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I read Catch 22 on holiday once and thought it was excellant (not to sure about the film though)
Absolutely agree about Gravitys Rainbow (but prefer Aganist the Day)
and I love Vonnegut - thinks Slaugterhouse 5 is immense (but not as good as Breakfast of Champions)
Absolutely agree about Gravitys Rainbow (but prefer Aganist the Day)
and I love Vonnegut - thinks Slaugterhouse 5 is immense (but not as good as Breakfast of Champions)
After one look at this planet any visitor from outer space would say 'I want to see the manager.
Funny how we agree on the same things with Pynchon KJ, especially the Malta sections. I think the last moment of Profane and the girl is one of the most mesmeric passages I've read in fiction. Haven't about four of us already commented on exactly that somewhere else on the forum? Spooky ...