Christopher Hitchens dies

[brianedwards]

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=13214700&sid=81&p=2

[OwenEdwards]

A man of rare genius and verve and an incredibly entertaining writer. Rest in peace.

[k-j]

A man of rare genius and verve and an incredibly entertaining writer. Rest in peace.

Well said. I especially love his literary criticism but he was a joy to read on any subject.

[Travis]

Rest in peace.

Isn't he in Hell, or at least Purgatory? There's no peace outside of Heaven.

[OwenEdwards]

Isn't he in Hell, or at least Purgatory? There's no peace outside of Heaven.

As if I know the number of the elect or am in a position to do anything but entreat in hope.

But seriously, I was really referring to the impending zombie apocalypse.

[Travis]

As if I know the number of the elect or am in a position to do anything but entreat in hope.

You might not know the number, but the entrance requirements, the criteria, they're very much within your purview.

So which is it? Where is he? It's not Heaven. Among his many sins and blasphemies is his failure to accept Jesus as the son of God, as the Savior. And Jesus is the key that unlocks the gates of Heaven. So he can't be there. This leaves only Hell. Because let's face it, in repudiating Jesus, and by extension, God, one is essentially forgoing any real shot at making the Purgatory team. So now I have to inquire as to what peace you believe the poor man could possibly be resting in while contemplating his eternal separation from God and suffering for eternity because of it? (Let's not forget that he might also be getting char broiled as we speak.) And if he is indeed in Hell, suffering from separation anxiety and being roasted, then what are we to make of your RIP? You can say you hope for better for the man, but in doing so you're not being much of a Christian insofar as a moderate Christian is not much of a Christian in his or her watered-down, make it up as they go along sort of way. This leaves us then with two other contemptible possibilities: 1. You do the religion/atheism thing and can't resist throwing in when certain topics or people come up, thus making your ostensibly hope-filled entreaty little more than vacuous ostentation, and 2. You don't believe a word of what you say and instead suspect that there is a fourth, hitherto unmentioned state into which the man might have shuffled, namely, oblivion. In other words, Christopher Hitchens is no more.

Give me alternatives...

[OwenEdwards]

Am I aware of the entry requirements? The sole actual "entry requirement" is the eternal election of God - "not by works but by his call". If we are *all* separated from God by our sin, then none of us by doing a thing can make the right reparations. So simply being able to say "I tick off the alleged entry requirements" means nothing. St Paul is certainly of the opinion that God's mercy is extensive, inscrutable and surprising. Speaking of Israel he says "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election, they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors". Speaking of Christ, he says "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross" (emphasis mine, obviously).

Now - if Jesus can pray "Forgive them father, they know now what they do" when they were, evidently, repudiating Christ - and if Paul can say "for I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people" - then I believe it is entirely appropriate for me to hope/pray for the best for Christopher Hitchens. I am no "better" than he - I deserve hell as much as he does, and if I should avoid that fate (and that's God's call), then it will be through a ridiculous mercy on God's part, on behalf of His Son.

Hitchens wrote entertainingly and lucidly, hated utilitarian religion (which is an idol I'm glad he assaulted), and I would love to see him in heaven, and believe, though "for man it is impossible, for God all things are possible". I believe that is a thoroughly Christian option; I would have said the same on threads about anyone. Now, if you want to continue this conversation (perhaps without personal slurs; but that's your choice), I'd be happy to in another thread or via PM.

[Ros]

Good questions from SS; good answer from Owen.

Peace & goodwill, etc.

Ros

[brianedwards]

Now, if you want to continue this conversation (perhaps without personal slurs; but that's your choice), I'd be happy to in another thread or via PM.

Don't you dare take this excellent discussion to PM.

[OwenEdwards]

Don't you dare take this excellent discussion to PM.

Am I "losing" that badly Brian?

[David]

I deserve hell as much as he does

No you don't, and nor does he.

You seem like a thoroughly decent bloke, Owen, but that's the sort of self-hating self-abnegating and gangster-God-glorifying balls I simply can't abide. I'm sure I can't produce a closely argued proof of my opinion, but I am completely unable to believe in a God who proceeds on the basis that "everyone deserves hell", particularly if you're basing that assumption on the nonsense of original sin.

Curses. I promised myself I wouldn't get drawn into this argument.

[k-j]

And now I wake up to the news about Kim Jong-Il.

What a crap week for celebrity atheists.

[Travis]

Sorry I'm late. Work, death in the family, Skyrim, etc. And apologies in advance for all that this response will certainly lack. I'm hopped up on pinot and sangria, the latter of which seems to apologize for itself in advance during every sip, saying something like, "I'm sorry, Trav, for what you're about to swallow."

Anyway, Owen, like so many theists in an apologetic position, you say so much and yet manage to say so little. That said, here's what I got from it:

The sole actual "entry requirement" is the eternal election of God - "not by works but by his call". If we are *all* separated from God by our sin, then none of us by doing a thing can make the right reparations. So simply being able to say "I tick off the alleged entry requirements" means nothing. (God is a capricious tyrant.)

St Paul is certainly of the opinion that God's mercy is extensive, inscrutable and surprising. Speaking of Israel he says "As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election, they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors". Speaking of Christ, he says "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross"/Now - if Jesus can pray "Forgive them father, they know now what they do" when they were, evidently, repudiating Christ - and if Paul can say "for I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people" - then I believe it is entirely appropriate for me to hope/pray for the best for Christopher Hitchens. (Inhabitants of the 1st century knew more about morality, philosophy, death, the (alleged) afterlife, and the nature of reality than their counterparts here in the 21st.)

I am no "better" than he - I deserve hell as much as he does, and if I should avoid that fate (and that's God's call), then it will be through a ridiculous mercy on God's part, on behalf of His Son. (God is a capricious tyrant/You're his peon/Theism is evil.)

Hitchens wrote entertainingly and lucidly, hated utilitarian religion (Hitch wasn't a total piece of shit.)

I would love to see him in heaven... (You hope he's currently being subjected (against his will) to an eternity of serfdom.)

...and believe, though "for man it is impossible, for God all things are possible". (God is a capricious tyrant/Pascal was da bomb.)

I believe that (the possibility of Hitch not going to Hell) is a thoroughly Christian option (Christianity is mutable/The Bible is just lolz.)

As for the charge of personal slurs, if you can point out where I did anything more than state an opinion, and then prove that you have the right to not be offended by that opinion, then I'll promptly PayPal you $100.