British

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St Calixtas Churchyard, West Down, Devon

The gravestone of John and Rebecca Ackland (nee Bale), born in the 1760s. He died 1848, she 1832.

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Their son John Ackland born 1802, West Down, dies in Swansea, Wales in 1880s. Photo taken c.1875.

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His daughter, Jane Ridd (nee Ackland) born 1832 West Down, died Swansea, Wales, 1909. Photo taken c.1900.

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Her daughters, Mary and Ellen Ridd. Mary, right, (1871/1956) marries George Crook in Swansea..

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Mary has a some Ambrose Crook, born 1902, second row far left. Her husband and two sons in the photo.

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Ambrose, who had a son, Derek, here with his family as a small boy in 1930s Swansea. Ambrose top right.

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Derek, whose son, Seth born 1965, is raised in the North of England....on left in 1980s.

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Derek also has a daughter, like Seth and Derek, now living in Scotland, here (back turned) advising her own daughter born and raised in Aberfeldy, Scotland. Devon, South Wales, North England, Scotland.

[Elphin]

Hi Seth

But surely all of those movements could have happened in an island of independent countries.

I would be presumptuous and suggest that the first move from Sussex to Swansea was in search of work... Isn't that the main driver of population movement. Scotland has thriving Polish, Pakistani and Irish communities for example, all of whom came for work - the fact that they didn't come from a "British" country didn't stop them.

It's an interesting question - is British an identity or do people (particularly in the minority nations) identify themselves first as Scottish, Welsh etc. I have just come back from travelling to Asia and always put British as my nationality... But truthfully I did so to speed through immigration and avoid long discussions.

I am interested in the view of our Manx friend - are you British? What about others - English or British? Scottish or British? Welsh or British?

elph

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It's an interesting question - is British an identity

I'm saying yes, Elph. It is mine. As the above illustrates my people were a/are British...a larger geographical identity.

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Always struck by this Yeats poem (partly) on identity...

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19414

[David]

Am I British? Definitely, I would say. But I would describe myself as Manx first. Only not (like you) on official forms, where it only causes confusion.

[David]

And I should have said - and would have done so, if I hadn't been distracted - great pictures, Seth: culminating (apart from your sister advising her daughter - I have often advised my own daughter similarly, at the top of my voice) in what appears to be a young Shakin' Stevens. Very good!

And it would be interesting to hear more on Britishness. (Aren't we Celts the true original Brits anyway?)

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Thanks David.
Shakin Stevens? aargh. Britain = "..this ole house".

I tracked the last three photos down around 3 years ago...my pride and joy. The oldest travelled to the US and came back. I still look at it agog. The gravestone is news from a few days ago. I had no idea it existed. I suspected they would be buried there, but not that there would be still standing stones. But then West Down seems to be much as it was in the early 19th century.

(Aren't we Celts the true original Brits anyway?)

So I hear.


Seth

[David]

Shakin Stevens? aargh. Britain = "..this ole house".

Perfect! Actually, scarily so. (Sort of.)

This old house once knew my children
This old house once knew my wife
This old house was home and comfort
As we fought the storms of life
This old house once rang with laughter
This old house heard many shouts
Now it trembles in the darkness
When the lightning walks about
Ain't gonna need this house no longer
Ain't gonna need this house no more
Ain't got time to fix the shingles
Ain't got time to fix the floor
Ain't got time to oil the hinges
Nor to mend no window pane
Ain't gonna need this house no longer
I'm gettin' ready to meet the saints

I think I can see a lot of Ellen in you. (Tracing family traits in faces - one of my annoying habits, according to my family.)

[Elphin]

At the risk of becoming a bore, a couple of observations

I get why you would say British is your identity Seth, its a larger geographical description in the same way you would say you are European. But identity is more than that, for me, of course I am British that is a factual description but my "identity" or who I am is more specific than that. There are many aspects to that, artistic heritage is one, so of course I can admire Shakespeare, Hardy and a list of others but I don't identify with their history or any of their contexts which for me are English. I have little emotional response to them but I do identify with Burns etc.

I also find it interesting that this thread hasn't attracted comment from any of our English friends -- I would offer the thought that as the majority nation in Britain, English and British are interchangeable concepts and this debate is therefore much fuss about nothing.

elph

[k-j]

I also find it interesting that this thread hasn't attracted comment from any of our English friends -- I would offer the thought that as the majority nation in Britain, English and British are interchangeable concepts

I'm English/British (Canadian mother but born and raised in England). I think this is the main point. While there does exist an English cultural identity, or rather a set of identifiers* which people adopt in constructing their English identity, it doesn't sit in conflict with the British identity to the extent it does for some Scottish, Welsh people for example. I, like most English people, think of myself as equally English and British, with only trivial differences between the two identities. Obviously this is also true of many Scottish-British people, but there are also plenty who identify as Scottish first, British second or not at all. I think it's just an inevitable consequence of being the majority in a union like this.

and this debate is therefore much fuss about nothing.

You mean for the English? Yes, probably.

*cricket, Elgar, Wind in the Willows, post-colonial awkwardness...

[Oskar]

I’m not Scottish or Welsh. Born in England, of English parents. But I consider myself to be British. What interests me isn’t so much finding identity by looking back into the past, although it’s something that is unavoidable, but it’s what I can draw on NOW, going into the future that will give me a sense of belonging. Being “British”, or any nationality means different things to different people. The “typical” White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Englishman of pre-World War Two (if he ever existed at all) has most definitely gone. What disturbs me is the seemingly increased tendency to wave the St George's Cross in England. To me, it reveals an unpleasant siege mentality of part of an English nation that has no clearly defined sense of itself, so it has to wave flags and blame “foreigners” for every economic and social issue that we face.

The challenge for our elected representatives and everyone who lives on this island, is to find a way of binding all of the various racial and religious communities together into a new definition of what it means to be British in the twenty first century. If we just rely on history and local reference points to shape our sense of identity, Britain will become increasingly Balkanized. I for one wouldn’t want to see that happen.

[k-j]

The “typical” White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Englishman of pre-World War Two (if he ever existed at all) has most definitely gone.

He (and she) definitely existed, and definitely hasn't gone (except the Protestant bit). Obviously England is more diverse now, but that doesn't mean all or even most of its inhabitants are. Most people still have a single cultural background.

What disturbs me is the seemingly increased tendency to wave the St George's Cross in England. To me, it reveals an unpleasant siege mentality of part of an English nation that has no clearly defined sense of itself, so it has to wave flags and blame “foreigners” for every economic and social issue that we face.

I sort of agree with this, because the flag-wavers always seem to be loutish and dull - but do you really think the St George's flag is less desirable than the union jack? Surely flag-waving is flag-waving, whatever the polity you're cheering for. Certainly the Scots wave their St Andrew's flag at moments of national emotion - is that equally bad? Isn't it valid to value local pride over federal pride? No-one cheers for the E.U. flag, because no-one really thinks of themselves as a "European". America is different - a federation of states which are all pretty similar culturally. Britain's in between I think, but closer to the U.S. in terms of cohesiveness.

The challenge for our elected representatives and everyone who lives on this island, is to find a way of binding all of the various racial and religious communities together into a new definition of what it means to be British in the twenty first century. If we just rely on history and local reference points to shape our sense of identity, Britain will become increasingly Balkanized. I for one wouldn’t want to see that happen.

Totally agree with the aspiration but not sure it's possible, never mind likely.

[Elphin]

What disturbs me is the seemingly increased tendency to wave the St George's Cross in England

I would never classify myself as a flag waver but I certainly don't revile at the St Andrews Cross and I don't believe the Welsh do at the dragon. The problem with the St George's Cross is it has been hijacked by the worst sort of nationalists in England. So its not the flag that's the problem its the louts!

an English nation that has no clearly defined sense of itself

I have no view as to whether that is true or not, I am not qualified to make a judgement, but if it is I believe it is the conflation of Britishness and Englishness that is at the root of this and as "Britain" has regionalised and powers have been devolved then that sense has been less clear. In truth Britain is a fairly recent construct -- I watched a TV advert for a new program "The Georgians" which had a tag line "the German kings who created Britain" -- so 200 year old at most. Ironically where I see the greatest sense of Britishness is in my parents generation and of course the event that binded them in their Britishness is the War!

Britain will become increasingly Balkanized

Now I am no Balkan expert, but my sense of the troubled history of the Balkans is that the roots are in religion and the break up of the Ottoman Empire. I don't have that sense of religious division, at least on mainland Britain.

So I guess I am much more optimistic about an island of independent nations co-existing and collaborating on our island and all as part of Europe.

elph

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I am havering people...I really am. I am currently rather moved by the argument....independence will happen next time, so why not get on with it now? Of course there is an element of self-fufilling prophecy in this, but still...

Asking around all the friends and relations this summer and I find plenty of no voters, but no enthusiasm for Westminister/London/British political institutions. None. Just weariness. It will be a no, but in the longer run this ship is going down....glug, glug.

[steamboats]

Abandon ship