i can't make sense of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... h_dialects or this http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix: ... nunciation page. i don't see what purpose the charts are supposed to have, or how to use them.
thanks for any help...
i ask cos i'm interested [bizarrely] if the dipthong in "town" /taʊ̯n/ is the the same as the dipthing in "one", but with its vowels inverted.
[w] has the same sound as , if that helps anyone solve me last problem at all.
IPA
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lemonstar
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- Location: N.Staffs/S.Cheshire border.
I can recommend this 36 lecture (!!!) set Understanding Linguistics:-
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/Cour ... x?cid=2270
The first lecture may well explain most of what you might want to know - if you look at both pictures on this page:-
http://www2.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/caneng/phono.htm
you may start to see the system used to link the way a sound is made (i.e. how the tongue position, teeth, lips and air/voice is used) to the particular sound that is produced. Under the 2nd column in the table, for instance, labiodental refers to sounds made by passing air between tongue and teeth - they list the sounds,the phonemes (not the letters) f and v as they are both made in the same way (with air passing between tongue and teeth) but f and v differ - f can be sounded without creating a sound using your voice - it can be made by the passage of air alone.
If you stay in the fricative row and move along to the next column you see two symbols:-
1) the [θ] sound, which is named "theta", is a "voiceless interdental fricative" sound while
2) the [ð] sound, which is called "eth", is a "voiced interdental fricative" (the symbol is a mirror image of the number 6 with a bar through the riser)
The voiceless [θ] sound can be heard clearly insuch words like:-
thick, ethnic and sheath
The voiced [ð] sound can be heard in such words like:-
thus, within and lathe
Both [θ] and [ð] are frequently heard sounds in English language but they are a problem for Turkish learners of English as they do not use that sound in modern standard Turkish.
This very short clip from the TTC lecture 2 talks about the differences in pronunciation of the word "Fuji" in Japanese and English-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9CAyH2mvNI
the whole field if linguistics and pronunciation is quite fascinating - I'm not sure of it's value though, seems very academic to me (but so does the Large Hadron Collider to a lot of people - not me though) - helpful when trying to teach English as a second language to understand that certain sounds used in English may not be a part of someone else's native language.
A diphthong is two vowels rolled into a single syllable (and a single sound) - more than one grapheme (representation on paper) can map on to the same phoneme (spoken representation in sound) so f in figure and ph in phone both map onto the same sound.
The IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) uses the horseshoe symbol for the w sound you hear in town and one - it's the same sound (or almost so imho) made in the same way(or almost so imho) - the horseshoe symbol is described here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close ... nded_vowel
as a near closed, near back rounded vowel - it describes how it is made in the mouth.
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/Cour ... x?cid=2270
The first lecture may well explain most of what you might want to know - if you look at both pictures on this page:-
http://www2.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/caneng/phono.htm
you may start to see the system used to link the way a sound is made (i.e. how the tongue position, teeth, lips and air/voice is used) to the particular sound that is produced. Under the 2nd column in the table, for instance, labiodental refers to sounds made by passing air between tongue and teeth - they list the sounds,the phonemes (not the letters) f and v as they are both made in the same way (with air passing between tongue and teeth) but f and v differ - f can be sounded without creating a sound using your voice - it can be made by the passage of air alone.
If you stay in the fricative row and move along to the next column you see two symbols:-
1) the [θ] sound, which is named "theta", is a "voiceless interdental fricative" sound while
2) the [ð] sound, which is called "eth", is a "voiced interdental fricative" (the symbol is a mirror image of the number 6 with a bar through the riser)
The voiceless [θ] sound can be heard clearly insuch words like:-
thick, ethnic and sheath
The voiced [ð] sound can be heard in such words like:-
thus, within and lathe
Both [θ] and [ð] are frequently heard sounds in English language but they are a problem for Turkish learners of English as they do not use that sound in modern standard Turkish.
This very short clip from the TTC lecture 2 talks about the differences in pronunciation of the word "Fuji" in Japanese and English-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9CAyH2mvNI
the whole field if linguistics and pronunciation is quite fascinating - I'm not sure of it's value though, seems very academic to me (but so does the Large Hadron Collider to a lot of people - not me though) - helpful when trying to teach English as a second language to understand that certain sounds used in English may not be a part of someone else's native language.
A diphthong is two vowels rolled into a single syllable (and a single sound) - more than one grapheme (representation on paper) can map on to the same phoneme (spoken representation in sound) so f in figure and ph in phone both map onto the same sound.
The IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) uses the horseshoe symbol for the w sound you hear in town and one - it's the same sound (or almost so imho) made in the same way(or almost so imho) - the horseshoe symbol is described here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close ... nded_vowel
as a near closed, near back rounded vowel - it describes how it is made in the mouth.
The rest of you...keep banging the rocks together.
thanksThe IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) uses the horseshoe symbol for the w sound you hear in town and one - it's the same sound (or almost so imho) made in the same way(or almost so imho) - the horseshoe symbol is described here
it kinda is in an aussie accent... i was wondering how whether phonics class creates alternative accents.
i think i understand the charts niow, i'll post back if i need.
"It is not necessary that a poem should rely on its music, but if it does rely on its music that music must be such as will delight the expert."
IPA town /taʊ̯n/
IPA one /wʌn/ /wan/ etc.
IPA u =/= IPA ʊ̯
one chart
aʊ IPA -> ʌu̯ GA
the other
aʊ IPA GA -> ou AHD
i am told that the "vowel" u sounds like w... so it seems australian wan = uan, which gives me au.
the au reversed from australian one, only partially matches the ou AHD town...
... but because i am not sure what exactly the two charts mean, i can't say if i was right in the first place. after-all, the australian one shares the w with AHD town, and IPA town shares the a with australian one. so that should be sufficient right? or... not??
IPA one /wʌn/ /wan/ etc.
IPA u =/= IPA ʊ̯
one chart
aʊ IPA -> ʌu̯ GA
the other
aʊ IPA GA -> ou AHD
i am told that the "vowel" u sounds like w... so it seems australian wan = uan, which gives me au.
the au reversed from australian one, only partially matches the ou AHD town...
... but because i am not sure what exactly the two charts mean, i can't say if i was right in the first place. after-all, the australian one shares the w with AHD town, and IPA town shares the a with australian one. so that should be sufficient right? or... not??
Last edited by clemonz on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is not necessary that a poem should rely on its music, but if it does rely on its music that music must be such as will delight the expert."
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lemonstar
- Persistent Poster
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:10 pm
- Location: N.Staffs/S.Cheshire border.
Clemonz you started out asking about "town" and "one" but now you have just referred to "town" and "won" - I don't really grasp what you are asking about.
I'm no expert btw - I'm just an enthusiastic amateur who has looked at some of this stuff - tbh I don't know anything about how an Australian might pronounce words - the point I was trying to put across was that phonetic system IPA has tried to catalogue "sounds" - it has given each a symbol and the underlying assumption is that if the sounds are the same they have been mechanically produced in the same way (I guess there must be some exceptions). So even if the word is spelt the same in 2 languages the phonetic spellings could be different if the word is pronounced differently - this must apply to the differences in regional dialects - if they sound different there will be a different phonetic spelling. It's like the Mt Fuji example I linked to - Westerners will use a voiceless labiodental fricative with the symbol f for the sound they make when pronouncing it but native Japanese don't say it the same way, they make a different sound and the reason is that it is generated differently so it has another symbol and is given a different name - they use a voiceless bilabial fricative and it has the symbol phi.
Which sounds are you asking about in which words?
What is the issue?
Do you think that one of the phonetic spellings given is wrong?
Why do you think that?
Is that because you personally pronounce the two words in what you think is the same way and can't understand how they could sound different and hence why they should have different phonetic spellings?
Or is there an error in one of the tables? Where exactly? I can have a look if you can explain - this is hard stuff to write about - we are effectively deaf to each others words!
I'm no expert btw - I'm just an enthusiastic amateur who has looked at some of this stuff - tbh I don't know anything about how an Australian might pronounce words - the point I was trying to put across was that phonetic system IPA has tried to catalogue "sounds" - it has given each a symbol and the underlying assumption is that if the sounds are the same they have been mechanically produced in the same way (I guess there must be some exceptions). So even if the word is spelt the same in 2 languages the phonetic spellings could be different if the word is pronounced differently - this must apply to the differences in regional dialects - if they sound different there will be a different phonetic spelling. It's like the Mt Fuji example I linked to - Westerners will use a voiceless labiodental fricative with the symbol f for the sound they make when pronouncing it but native Japanese don't say it the same way, they make a different sound and the reason is that it is generated differently so it has another symbol and is given a different name - they use a voiceless bilabial fricative and it has the symbol phi.
Which sounds are you asking about in which words?
What is the issue?
Do you think that one of the phonetic spellings given is wrong?
Why do you think that?
Is that because you personally pronounce the two words in what you think is the same way and can't understand how they could sound different and hence why they should have different phonetic spellings?
Or is there an error in one of the tables? Where exactly? I can have a look if you can explain - this is hard stuff to write about - we are effectively deaf to each others words!
The rest of you...keep banging the rocks together.
