Understanding Meter

[CalebPerry]

I'm curious about that! Could you please give an example, Caleb? I'm quite interested to know more about that.

Well, words have their own imperatives. If you have a situation like this:

DUM da da da DUM

But the middle "da" is a short syllable in a multisyllabic word which CANNOT take a stress without distorting the word, then you can't raise that to a stressed position. im-PER-a-TIVE -- the "a" in that word can never be stressed.

But even if you are using monosyllabic words (is "monosyllabic" the way to say it?), if the middle "da" falls on a word which is a business word (a, in, to, the, etc.), stressing it may make the line sound ridiculous, so you can't stress it. So yes, you certainly can have three unstressed syllables in a row in poetry.

I can't think of actual examples now, though I've encountered them frequently in my writing.

[MilesTRanter]

Thanks for explaining that, Caleb. If you find a line in a poem, could you please post it?

I was trying to find an example of a line of accentual syllabic verse which has 3 unaccented syllables in a row. I've never come across such a thing (though I've seen it in accentual meter). When I Googled, I came across this excellent article by Timothy Steele called “Introduction to English Meter." Here’s an excerpt touching on the very topic we’ve been discussing. (I underlined the relevant passage.)

Another illustrative case—this one involving grammatical rather than rhetorical context—appears in Frost’s description (“The Egg and the Machine,” 5-6) of a railroad-hating man who regrets not having sabotaged some track when he had the chance:

He wished when he had had the track alone
He had attacked it with a club or stone

In the third foot of the first line of this couplet, “had” changes its metrical nature because the poet is writing in the past perfect tense. The first “had” is merely auxiliary, whereas the second “had”—the past participle of “have”—is the main verb:

x /
He wished | when he | had had | the track | alone

Some readers may note that, in the couplet’s second line, the auxiliary “had” occupies a metrical beat, and this results from its verbal context or environment. At this point, “had” is flanked fore and aft by relatively weak syllables—the pronoun “He” and the unaccented syllable of “attacked.” As linguists tells us, it is difficult to say a succession of syllables with exactly the same degree of stress, and when we speak three light syllables in a row, we tend to “promote” the middle one a little. To be sure, the auxiliary “had” doesn’t take as much actual speech stress as the accented second syllable of the main verb “attacked.” But the auxiliary has more stress than its immediate neighbors and therefore takes a metrical beat:
x / x / x / x / x /

He had attacked it with a club or stone

Something similar occurs in the following line, where the relatively light preposition “to” is promoted to a metrical beat as a result of being preceded by the unaccented syllable of “turnip” and followed by the article “the”:
x / x / x / x / x /

And gnaw | the fro | zen tur | nip to | the ground

(John Clare, “Sheep in Winter,” 3)

Conversely, a weighty word may be metrically “demoted” if flanked by other weighty words. In the following line, for example, “warm” is a metrical off-beat because it’s preceded the verb “think” and followed by the noun “days”:
x / x / x / x / x /

Until | they think | warm days | will nev | er cease

(John Keats, “To Autumn,” 10)

https://timothy-steele.com/intro-to-meter

[CalebPerry]

Miles, you are using examples from poets who were very careful about their meter. Yes, in many if not most instances, a weak syllable can be promoted to a stressed position, but that isn't always the case. As for finding a real-life example right at this moment, that could take a lot of searching. (Actually, you provided two examples below, from Steele's writing.)

Now I would scan the lines you posted like this:

he WISHED / when HE / had had / the TRACK / a LONE
he HAD / at TACKED / it with / a CLUB / or STONE

But it is an easy matter to give a theoretical stress to the second "had" in the first line, and the "with" in the second line. Frost was such a meticulous writer than he certainly wrote the lines that way.

But in my article on scansion, I address that issue by using a line by Wordsworth from Steele's own book.

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting
our BIRTH / is BUT / a SLEEP / and a / for GET / ting

As I say in the article, Steele would have us promote "a" to a stressed position in order to keep the IP meter, but in my opinion the word "a" in that line is so insignificant you just can't promote it. Steele's book is full of examples where he promoted syllables to keep the meter, resulting in very awkward-sounding lines.

I don't know if you have read all of that article that I wrote, but I analyze Steele's method and try to debunk it. Steele is aware of that article, and I think he doesn't like me much because of it.

So let's look at this line:

And gnaw the frozen turnip to the ground
and GNAW / the FRO / zen TUR / nip to / the GROUND

When I speak that, I tend to say "nip to the" in a quick succession of unstressed syllables. Indeed, I tend to say it more like this:

and GNAW / the FRO / zen TUR / nip (brief pause) / to the GROUND

In other words, I tend to say "to the ground" as if it were an anapest. (Pauses often take the place of syllables in poetry.)

I would scan the following line like this:

Until they think warm days will never cease
un TIL / they THINK / WARM DAYS / will NEV / er CEASE

In my view, Steele's scansion method is overly complicated, so much so that it should be ignored. Scansion isn't supposed to reveal the subtleties of pronunciation, if for no other reason than that people pronounce lines of poetry differently. The rhythm of our language is binary in that it goes back and forth between stressed and unstressed syllables. The scansion method we use needs to recognize that.

[MilesTRanter]

Hi Caleb,

I just saw your post dated Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:41 pm (which I somehow missed earlier). So thanks for letting me know where I can see your poems (which is right here at PAT!). Thanks also for ordering my book. Speaking of revising poems, there are a few in there that I have since modified with some minor tweaking, but they are basically the same. I hope you enjoy the collection.

Thanks for explaining that metrical question about unaccented syllables. Now I understand what you were saying. You mentioned your article that rankled Steele. Did you mean something you posted here, in this thread? or an article I can find elsewhere on the Web? I read most of this thread and couldn’t find the part where you debunk Steele’s method.

By the way, this line from Wordsworth:

our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting

You scan it thus:

our BIRTH / is BUT / a SLEEP / and a / for GET / ting

But I’m thinking that maybe the last two feet are a double iamb:

our BIRTH / is BUT / a SLEEP / and a / FOR GET (ting)

What do you think of that scansion? "For" (in the last foot) is only very slightly stressed, but it's got more weight than the two preceding syllables (and a). What do you think? Do you hear it that way?

Here’s something I just found.
https://thelinebreak.wordpress.com/tag/double-iamb/

The website mentions the double iamb. (Perhaps you touched on double iambs earlier in this thread.) The first foot of a double iamb is a pyrrhic. The second foot is a spondee: u u / /

u u
Pyrrhic. Can be used as an iamb substitute. Often called a double-iamb because it is usually followed by two stresses. However, some say “double-iamb” should be reserved for back-to-back iambs. See “ionic minor” and “diamb” below ...

u u / /
Ionic minor or ionic a minore or double iamb. Can be used as replacement for two iambic feet. See “pryyhic” above.

Here are two examples I found in Frost’s poem “Hyla Brook.”

or flourished and come up in jewelweed

or FLOUR / -ished and / COME UP / in JEW / -el WEED

than with brooks taken otherwhere in song

than with / BROOKS TAK / -en OTH / -er WHERE / in SONG

I agree with you that English is binary (strong and week accents). And also that actual spoken speech is filled with nuance. I’m enjoying this discussion, Caleb.

[CalebPerry]

Miles, I have just gotten up and can't answer everything you just said. I'll do that later this evening.

I thought that I had posted the URL of my scansion article, but I guess I hadn't. Here it is again:

http://poemtree.com/articles/Scansion.htm

[MilesTRanter]

Thanks for the link, Caleb. I'm going to read your article. There's no rush in replying to all those things I mentioned. Whenever you get around to is fine.

Miles

[CalebPerry]

I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner.

What you call a "double iamb" is what I call an "ionic". I don't know where I got that word, but I've been using it for years. I don't think I would have started to use it if I hadn't gotten it from someone with credibility or authority.

I just found this definition at Dictionary.com:

Prosody. noting or employing a foot consisting either of two long followed by two short syllables (greater Ionic ), or of two short followed by two long syllables (lesser Ionic ).

So I guess my usage is correct.

Yes, ionics are very common, and they are considered acceptable in IP. (If I didn't put it into this thread, I should do that immediately.) All the great poets use metrical flourishes. How about this one?

Let me not to the marriage of true minds / admit impediments.

LET me / NOT to / the MAR / riage of / TRUE MINDS
ad MIT / im PED / i MENTS / LOVE is / not LOVE

There is only one traditional iamb in the first line. Anomalous feet is where much of the beauty is in metered verse. But poets like Timothy Steele are so focussed on metrical regularity that they would remove a lot of those metrical anomalies, and I disagree with that.

It has now gotten late and I need to go to bed, but let me just say that I don't agree with this scansion:

our BIRTH / is BUT / a SLEEP / and a / FOR GET (ting)

"for", in my opinion, just can't take that much stress. But the "a" CAN take a "theoretical stress", which is how we know it is not out of place. Emphasizing the "a" sounds sing-song, but not completely daft.

Before I sign off tonight, let me just say that I trust my ear a lot. And so, I may mix lines of 4 beats with lines of 5 beats, like this:

xxx XXX / xx XXX / xxx XXX / xxx XXX / xxx XXX
XXX xxx / xxx XXX / xxx xxx XXX / xxx xxx XXX

You'll note that both lines are ten syllables. IP lines gallop forward very fast. On the other hand, a line like the second line, which has more unstressed syllables, slows down a little, and that slowness may suit the meaning better. Yet at the same time, the listener hears ten syllables in each line, and that helps the listener to know that the lines have some structure, even if the meter isn't pure.

[MilesTRanter]

Hi Caleb,

I started reading your article. (I’m slightly less than halfway through.) I really like that you started with that first line of “My Last Duchess.” It’s a great example of a line incorporating various kinds of feet. I also like what you say about a weak syllable taking on a “theoretical” tress.

Scansion — the notation of metrical poetry — is just that: a notation. Like all notation, it’s just a rough guide or blueprint or template to indicate the rhythm of the lines. It’s not exact and, so far, nobody has invented a notation that can show how a line is spoken precisely. And a large part of the reason is that no two readers will read any one line the exact same way — unless they are robots!

It’s similar (though not quite the same) as musical notation. Music notation is a rough guide and instructions for the performer, whether the conductor, the instrumentalist(s), or the singer(s). And, just like readers of poetry, no two musicians will play any one piece the exact same way — unless, again, they are robots. That’s why we love hearing different “interpretations” of the same piece of music — whether by different conductors and orchestras or, for example, different virtuoso violinists or pianists or guitarists or harpists.

So basically, because language has an infinite variety of nuances, there’s no possible way to reveal or express those subtleties and shadings in a notation (which we call scansion). So, again, scansion is merely a rough approximation or blueprint. As you said so well in your article, Caleb:

Scansion has at least two uses: We use it to study the poetry of other poets, and we also mentally scan our own poems as we write them ...

The shortcoming of meter-based scansion is that it doesn't reveal much about the poem being scanned. That's because it does little more than reveal the underlying meter, which presumably the person doing the scanning already knows ...

... Feet are an artificial subdivision, not an actual reality. Since it isn't possible during the recitation or hearing of a poem to determine which syllables come together to form which feet, it makes little sense to use feet as the determining factor in deciding which syllables to stress in scansion.

[MilesTRanter]

Well, I have read your whole article, Caleb. It's really excellent, which I enjoyed very much. You put a lot of heart and thought into it.

I'm curious about that discussion you had with those Eratospherians. I'm going to see if I can find the thread.

[MilesTRanter]

Hi Caleb,

I was looking for your thread at Eratosphere. I didn't find it, but I did find this interesting discussion. (The thread is 22 years old, by the way, from 2001.)

https://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthre ... eb+murdock

Here's a post by Sam Gwynn:

Here's my own handout for pentameter variations:THE IAMBIC PENTAMETER LINE AND ITS COMMON VARIANTS

The Old Standard (regular, more or less)

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield
And often is his gold complexion dimmed
And never lifted up a single stone

The Lagniappe (hypermetrical--feminine ending)

Ah! what a sound will rise, how wild and dreary,
But--Oh! ye lords of ladies intellectual
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

The Hors d'oeuvre (hypermetrical--anacrustic)

To a man they answered they would never move
And a woman came to gather up the coins
From my mother's womb I fell into the state

The Horseman (acephalous--headless)

Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote
Then the season changed and life began
Death in certain war, the slim legs green

"The Sag" (natural pyrrhic)

The murder and the coverup that followed (foot 2)
It little profits that an idle king (foot 3)
The equal weight of talent and desire (foot 4)
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed (feet 2 and 4)

"The Dip" (natural anapests--elision/syncope, etc.))

I hear even now the infinite fierce chorus
The hastening advent of the glimmering dawn
I fled to events that caused my heart to race
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues

"The Tim Steele Special" (natural spondees)

The night-lamp casts a halo of pale light
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May
And summer's lease hath all too short a date
When I have seen by Time's fell hand defaced
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!--An ecstasy of fumbling
But the child's mound--"
"Don't, don't, don't, don't," she cried.

"The Tip-Up" (pyrrhic/spondee)

When the death-angel touches those swift keys
Like a huge organ, rise the burnished arms
My gift of a nine-hundred-years-old name
Makes in my mind such pause and abrupt ease

"The Up-Tip" (spondee/pyrrhic)

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Ben Johnson his best piece of poetry
Beside still waters where she lay asleep

"The Rocker" (initial trochee; trochee after caesura)

Broke in the orchard for her, the white mule
Coffee and oranges in a sunny chair
Winding across wide water, without sound
Concealed, hintings of death she does not heed
When we are there; here on this lowly ground
Superior heard, run through the sweetest length

"The Misstep" (trochee with no caesura)

To do aught good never will be our task
And out of good still to find means of evil
And from his lofty perch tumbling from grace

[CalebPerry]

Hi, Miles. I'm sorry I didn't answer for a day. I've been busy, but also haven't been feeling great lately.

I'm no longer on Eratosphere, and since they delete old threads, little of me can be found there. The atmosphere there is really oppressive, in my view. They're very competitive, and the moderators are on power trips.

I find that Gwynn poem difficult to absorb. It is very hard for me to slog through a poem I don't find beautiful just to get the message.

[MilesTRanter]

Hi Caleb,

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't been feeling well. I hope you feel better soon.

I hear you about the Sphere. Most of the folks there are nice (I have some good friends from there), and some are quite talented. There are, of course, a few who can be difficult (which is probably the case for most places). I think the pros far outweigh the cons, however. I would like to mention that Leaf (Fliss) told me about PAT and invited me to join. So, thank you, Fliss!

The quote I posted from Gwynn is not a poem but a catalogue of pentameter lines with various kinds of rhythms. He invented clever names for each type. I posted it because I thought it would be instructive for folks who are interested in all things metrical.

By the way, I noticed that you had participated a bit in that thread I linked to. There are also comments from Stallings and some other well-know poets. I found some of their posts interesting.

[CalebPerry]

Perhaps it was because I was tired that I didn't look at the Gwynn thing more closely. I just looked at it again and still find it confusing. Good writing clarifies things.

Ah, Alicia Stallings. Her first book was totally brilliant. Every poem was a classic. Her subsequent books are also good. I exchanged emails with her in the process of putting her poems on my Poemtree site. Not too many years ago, I tried to strike up a friendship with her via email, but she wasn't receptive. What a treasure to the English language she is. Here is one of my favorite poems of hers:

http://poemtree.com/poems/ConsolationForTamar.htm

I wish I could write that naturally.

[MilesTRanter]

Caleb, I can see why you love "Consolation for Tamar." So do I. It's a delightful poem. She really has a way with words!

[MilesTRanter]

By the way, if you skim through that Eratosphere thread I linked to, besides Alicia, you'll also see Rhina and the late Tim Murphy (two of the poets at The Poem Tree).

[MilesTRanter]

Speaking of Eratosphere, here's member Jennifer Reeser in conversation with Timothy Green from Rattle. Jennifer reads some poems from her new book and talks about poetic form and meter, as well as how she got into writing poetry. I found out she is a trained percussionist, just like me!

[CalebPerry]

Thanks, Miles.

Two hours and twenty minutes is a lot of time to devote to watching an interview, especially since I'm not in love with Timothy Green, who has turned down 31 of my poems. The truth be told, I don't like a lot of the poems in Rattle. I also have to ask myself, can I trust the opinion of a woman who can't put her lipstick on right? (Just kidding, of course -- I think.)

I finally skimmed through the Eratosphere thread you linked me to. I remember participating in it.

[MilesTRanter]

Yes, Caleb, you did, indeed, participate in that thread! You don't have to watch the entire video. I only watched the part with "the woman who can't put her lipstick on right." LOL

Actually, I found Jennifer Reeser's segment quite interesting. She talks about why she writes in form, mentioning that when she was a little girl, she lived on a military base and, every day, would look out her window and hear the soldiers chanting their drills. She started singing along with them, so developed a sense of rhythm from a young age.

Also, her parents were quite literary and she would walk from one room to another always with a book in her hand. She also played percussion in her school band and orchestra.

Both her parents have Native American ancestry, so she is fascinated by their rituals and history.

[CalebPerry]

Miles, I think I owe you an apology. I am not doing all the homework you are giving me -- watching videos, reading old threads, etc. The portion of that video of Green/Reeser is more than an hour, and I don't have the interest to watch it all. Besides, watching Reeser's upper lip seems to put me into a trance and I don't hear the things she is saying. (Does she think her upper lip is too big, which is why she is trying to obscure part of it, or does she want to look like she is frowning?)

I also didn't read the entire thread on Eratosphere that you linked me to. (I just skimmed through it.) Part of the reason is that I am old and sick, with a new heart problem that started last July (nonstop atrial fibrillations). I'm tired all the time, and so I am expending my energy carefully. I did, however, look up Reeser's site and read the six or so poems of hers that are posted on the internet.

Now, if that had been an interview of Alicia Stallings or Rhina Espaillat, I would have listened to every word. I don't open all the gifts that are given to me, but I appreciate your desire to share things with me.

But please do post issues involving scansion or prosody in general here. I am always interested in those.

Did you ever look up "Piazza Piece" by Ransom? Great poem!

[MilesTRanter]

Hi Caleb,

Thanks for introducing me to "Piazza Piece." It's a great poem! I found this interesting analysis of it.

https://poemanalysis.com/john-crowe-ran ... zza-piece/

You are right about Jennifer's makup. She's a pretty woman, actually. It would have been better had she not used any makeup at all that day! I want to read more of her poems. Did you know that she got a scholarship to study percussion in college? She was obviously a talented kid.

The eratosphere thread about meter is intersting, but there's no need to read the whole thing.

I'm sorry to hear about your a-fib. Some folks have it all the time and they either notice it or not. And other folks have the symptoms only on occasion and they also either notice it or not. But as long as you're on an antigoagulant, you'll be OK.

[CalebPerry]

I obviously spent too much time and energy focussing on Jennifer's lipstick. The way she put it on just struck me as humorous. If I recall correctly, she overlapped not just her upper lip but her lower lip too. Still, it wasn't nice of me to be so snarky. I definitely have a snarky side which I don't always control. Who knows, maybe she has some disability.

I think that analysis of Piazza Piece is overdone. The poem is beautiful but simple and doesn't really need any explanation. But thanks for the link.

Yes, I'm taking an anticoagulant. Different people experience afibs differently. Some people don't even notice they are having them, while other people are tired out by them, like me.