Poetry Forum

OK, how about this one? Here is Milton, who of course had gone blind:

Sonnet 19: When I consider how my light is spent, BY JOHN MILTON

When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my Soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide;
“Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
I fondly ask. But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, “God doth not need
Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is Kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
And post o’er Land and Ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait.”


And here is Donne a little earlier:


Holy Sonnets: Death, be not proud, BY JOHN DONNE

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.

Are you expecting us to compare the poems, or choose a favorite?

They are both great poems, of course. I am saddened that Milton was blind, knowing that it was probably from something simple like glaucoma, so easily fixed today, or perhaps a cataract, both of which I am suffering from now (and both of which will be fixed soon).

Donne is a poet I love because his thought processes were both clever and surprisingly modern. If it didn't have a few antique words in it, "The Expiration" could have been written today.

Greetings, John!

It's a vote for Milton on this occasion, although members of Coo & Co had to pop to Interesting Literature again to ensure we'd understood the sonnet. The syntax is a struggle and feels unnatural at times, masking the sense and resulting in a tone that isn't especially appealing. The same could be said of the Donne sonnet, so perhaps it's just a sign o' the times. I suppose our taste inclines towards natural word order, although we appreciate the themes here and feel some compassion for Milton naturally (*v*)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

I prefer Donne's attitude to Milton's servitude.

Hi Caleb, Fliss and Coo, and Phil,

And thank you all for playing!
Caleb, I think either method works. Likely the easier route is to pick a winner (or favorite), but it’s nice to wonder how they compare and how they are different. They are about a half-century apart, but a lot had happened in that time in the UK. Oh, I agree with you about Milton’s blindness, though that thought had never struck me. That must be true of so many afflictions pre-1900 or thereabouts. There are articles about famous painters and the eye troubles that shaped their painting. Donne is brilliant, and yes, feels modern sometimes in that wit. I picked this over The Flea both because the opening is I think better-known and the poem is shorter, but I’m not sure Donne’s taste for play works as well with death as he might hope. It risks sounding facile, if not flippant.
Fliss and Coo, frankly I prefer the Milton as well, to me I sense actual emotion there, which I see less in Donne’s mind games. Of course, being blind will do that. I agree about the syntax, in both, frankly, which dates them but also marks them as of their period. Donne to a certain extent plays with syntax because he enjoys it; Eliot slammed Milton’s syntax, calling it stilted and affected, and might have said as much here. he was talking about Paradise Lost though.
Phil, what a nice play on words! I like the attitude-servitude contrast, and Milton does indeed talk about service. One might note that Milton was unusual among C17th major poets in being an ardent republican – he narrowly missed execution when Charles II returned, but his supporters saved him. He was in Cromwell’s government. In short, earthly servitude would I think be anathema to him, more so than to a Donne. Serving God he viewed differently – as an undergrad, he was called The Angel of Christ’s.
I think it’s hard to name a better-established C17th British poet than these two. Shakespeare, I guess, if you attach him to a century. Not Marvell or even Herbert, though both can be spellbinding, I think anyone might say. So, I thought it would be fun to give both their shot and see what readers think of them. It seems like a split decision thus far! Unlike the Byron-Blake matchup, which seemed to produce a clear fan fave.

Cheers and cheerie,
John

Hi John

I take your point on Milton's lived emotions.

Bw

Phil

jisbell00 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:49 pm

Fliss and Coo, frankly I prefer the Milton as well, to me I sense actual emotion there, which I see less in Donne’s mind games. Of course, being blind will do that. I agree about the syntax, in both, frankly, which dates them but also marks them as of their period. Donne to a certain extent plays with syntax because he enjoys it; Eliot slammed Milton’s syntax, calling it stilted and affected, and might have said as much here. he was talking about Paradise Lost though.

Cheerie,
John

Hi John,

You are welcome! Thank-coos for posting (^v^)

There is emotion in Milton, yes, and we feel it likely his religious belief bestows some comfort. We had an inkling the syntax might be of the period and are glad to have that confirmed. It's interesting that Eliot chose to slam it. I had to read the first two books of Paradise Lost for A-Level Eng. Lit., but at that time the National Curriculum didn't require close scrutiny of syntax, I think.

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Hi Phil and Fliss,

Yup, I do think there is lived emotion in there amid the syntax doing its thing, and I think he needs to end on an upbeat or risk denying that God is good, which would be very hard for him. This is also after the end of the republic and the return of King Charles II; Milton's last years were less happy than they might have been. Donne was also a very religious guy, but from a different time and without the republicanism. He was Dean of St Paul's, I think, when he wrote Death be not proud ...

Paradise Lost of course starts thus:

Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree, which first brought death
Into the world ...
... sing, Heavenly muse.

Eliot has something of a point: it's stilted and affected syntax, even by C17th standards. I think that's partly because Milton wants to sound like Virgil, or maybe even Homer. English isn't built for that.

Oh and one last thing - for Milton's real feelings on blindness, one can do worse than Samson Agonistes: "Eyeless in Gaza at the mill with slaves." I think that's also his thoughts on the republic's end.

Cheers,
John

This is all very interesting, John. I'm afraid we know very little about the end of the republic and the return of King Charles II at BirdBrains, but a little trip to see Prof. Wiki might help. We're intrigued by the relationship between republicanism and religion to which you refer (*v*)

We remember the beginning of Paradise Lost. My English teacher said Milton hoped to follow in the footsteps of Homer and Virgil, I think. Samson Agonistes sounds interesting too (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Greetings, Fliss and Coo!

Well, it was quite a religious republic. Certainly Protestant and somewhat Calvinist. The original Commonwealth, of course. The Roundheads were a religious bunch, and Milton was among them. Charles II was a very different kettle of fish, and James II seems to have been a crypto-Catholic; hence, the arrival of William and Mary.

I agree with your teacher FWIW! That makes sense to me. Samson Agonistes is great stuff - Samson, who narrates, is blind, shorn of his hair, and enslaved - as is the poem Lycidas, written for a friend who died young: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44733/lycidas
It ends "Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new," which is where the phrase comes from.

Cheers,
John

Greetings, John!

Thank-coos for this further info. Perhaps parts of it are familiar from history lessons at school, but that was quite a long time ago now. Possibly I know the Tudors better than the Stuarts. Hoo hum (*v*)

Ooh good, you agree with Mr Beal. And thank-coos for the link, to which we shall attend. Now pastures new, how pleasant. We think of Queenie, Biccie and Cookie* enjoying a fresh patch of the lawn (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

*Mrs T decided the new guinea girls remind her of sandwich biscuits due to their colouring

Wonderful! Splendid names, I think, for the guineas in question. They could certainly make short work of a lawn if needed.

I am happy to be in Mr Beale's company, and yes, the Tudors do seem to get more playing time than the Stuarts, who are often relegated to the history bench, more's the pity! Cromwell of course is England's only non-monarch head of state, unless his brother took over for a bit at the end (I think he did).

Cheerie,
John

Richard Cromwell took over for a short while John. He was Oliver Cromwell's son.

Interesting point you make about Donne's 'flippancy' and, as you imply, probably a legacy of his clever entertainment poems.

Thanks for the Cromwell update, Phil! It is appreciated.

Yup, Donne still feels a bit flippant to me here.

Cheers,
John

jisbell00 wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:38 am

Wonderful! Splendid names, I think, for the guineas in question. They could certainly make short work of a lawn if needed.

I am happy to be in Mr Beale's company, and yes, the Tudors do seem to get more playing time than the Stuarts, who are often relegated to the history bench, more's the pity! Cromwell of course is England's only non-monarch head of state, unless his brother took over for a bit at the end (I think he did).

Cheerie,
John

Hooray! Thank-coos, John. Coo and I hope to see the guineas again soon. Currently Mrs T has six under her care, as a friend's three guineas are staying with her while their owners are on holiday.

Ooh yes, well, this was Mr Beal (no 'e' at the end), but there was also a Mr Beale, amusingly. Alek and I watched The Tudors together, yikesy. He might like to watch something on the Stuarts if I mention this discussion.

Coo and I are entering Sleepy Time now, but we'll try to comment on the Shelley and Coleridge thread tomorrow. We were telling Mrs T about all the threads while we were in the park today, and she was very impressed! You might recall, she studied Eng. Lit. as part of her degree (also French and Philosophy) (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Greetings, FLiss and Coo,

Woo-hoo, six guineas!

Beal and Beale! perhaps I picked up on that in the ether somehow. We had two Mr Walls, Tall Wall and Small Wall. Yes, the Stuarts had some interesting times! Two revolutions, various mistresses and a beheading.

I do remember Mrs T's achievements! We all enjoyed our chat that day. I am glad she likes the sound of this theme!

Cheerie,
John

Ooh, one more post, and then we must to luncheon. We have the hunger-shakes again (*v*)

Yes indeedy, six guineas! I've mentioned Mr Beale in the past, so perhaps he was lodged in your brain. We're amused by the Walls. The Stuarts sound interesting and Alek thinks he's found something we can watch. It's called The Stuarts: A Bloody Reign (*v*)

The chat was most splendid. Mrs T tends to find a lot of people disappointing, so we are honoured to have her approval (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Sorry to hear about the hunger-shakes! Now a hunger-milkshake would I suspect be preferable.

Six guineas! That is rather a large sum!

The Stuart piece sounds bloody good, if you'll pardon my French.

Greetings to Mrs T!

Cheerie,
John

Thank-coos, John! The word 'hunger-milkshake' brings to mind the diet of a large part of 2021, being Fortisip, Complan, and Ensure (^v^)

Six guineas indeedy, very pleasant. Ad yes, we're looking forward to learning about the Stuarts. We've almost finished a series called Prime Suspect, so we might watch over the weekend. And greetings shall be sent to Mrs T, who will appreciate them we are sure (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Aha! It sounds like all things are progressing smoothly! That is good news. Is Prime Suspect with Helen Mirren? I've seen at least an episode, back in the day.

Hunger-milkshakes might be less appetizing than I'd suggested, if you spent much of a year having them. You have my milkshake sympathies, Fliss.

Cheerie,
John

Woo-hoo! Super-smooooth! (^o^)

Yes, Prime Suspect has Helen Mirren in the lead role. She's very good; it started just a few years after Morse got going but has a much grittier feel (*v*)

I had a long stretch on Fortisip and the others after an arthritis treatment caused chronic stomach inflammation and I couldn't eat. When I visited the rheumatologist for my review appointment, I was barely 8 stone. The treatment had been working, but he was adamant I try something else, otherwise I would "just fade away". Thank-coos for the milkshake sympathies! (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

Wow! Well ,it's a good thing you didn't just fade away, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here! My grandma, and later my aunt, went through a lot of Ensure, so I am familar with it. It does give you needed vitamins and so forth!

Cheerie,
John

Yes, what a relief, hooray. The drinks are good for vits etc., but at one point I was having just two daily, hence the weight loss. Trying to maintain a healthy weight now (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)

I OTOH am trying to reach a healthy weight. Down 9 kg, which is good.

Cheerie,
John

I feel the flippancy filter is beginning to be a positive in my reading of Donne's poem. A sort of defiance, disrespectful two fingers to Death!