As idle as a painted ship.....the forum becalmed......Again

[barrie]

‘Down dropt the breeze, the sails dropt down,
'Twas sad as sad could be ;
And we did speak only to break
The silence of the sea !



I’m sure that everyone who has been active on this site over the past few months must have noticed that for most of the time these days, it’s been reduced to a crawl. Periodically, things begin to look brighter and I begin to think (hope) that maybe it’s picking up – a day later and we’re becalmed once again! An apathy has spread right through the forum over recent weeks, I don’t know how it started, but I do know that it’s catching – Once fruitful posters have been seen less and less (I’m not just talking about writers’ block here). I’ve felt like that myself recently – “What’s the fucking point when no-one else gives a shit!” – Then I’ll think about it and give it another push - because there are a core of people who keep on with it, who keep the site ticking over, waiting patiently for it to burst into life again – The rest of us wait on the sidelines hoping for the best. It’ll never burst into life if we all wait for someone else to do something – We're all here because we write and we want to know how other people react to what we post – otherwise we wouldn’t be here. I know that the rules ask for two crits per poem – How many people can honestly say that they’d be satisfied if they actually only received two crits for each poem they posted?

If we all stick rigidly to this two crit rule (less for some when they can get away with it), then two in return will become the norm – maybe three for some, one for others, etc. It’s human nature to do as little as possible in order to survive (energy retention and all that), but we’re here by choice – to help and be helped, not to sit back and rely on others. It’s a hell of a lot more inspiring when there are plenty of posts to read – both poems and crits. It encourages creativity, apathy stifles it.

I like to read other people’s stuff, I like to give my opinion – If I comment on a person’s work a couple of times without reciprocation, then I tend to keep my opinion to myself – This is how most people here react; this where the two crit rule breaks down; when people use it as a yardstick and not as the MINIMUM rule. If you don’t acknowledge others, why the hell should they acknowledge you – It’s human nature.

The only way that we’re going to get this site moving again is by being generous with our crits instead of just expecting them off others. I know that some people have more time than others, but it’s all down to every last one of us who contribute to make this site work, because if we don’t – What the fuck are we doing here in the first place?

We need each others help.

(hopefully) Barrie

[cameron]

Well said Barrie.

I'm not sure what the answer is.

Speaking as "forum owner", I make this place available in the hope that it will be used. I didn't set it running because I like the sound of my own voice or that I want to impose my views about poetry on all comers. Similarly, I have to admit, that I don't want to play the role of Policeman/enforcer because I don't have the time or the inclination for the job.

I can't force people to join and I can't force people to contribute, but I do appreciate everyone who does contribute - especially the big-hitters - who, I think, know who they are.

At the risk of sounding big headed - this is one of the (very) few quality poetry forums on the internet - and that is down to the quality of the people who hang out here.

I know that it will never "rock" - and that's always going to be the case with a poetry site (it's a minority interest) - but as Barrie points out - it might wither away completely if it's not used.

I'm waffling a bit here - but I wanted to throw some thoughts into the pot.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

Cam

[juliadebeauvoir]

I agree with Barrie. This is why I commented on emuse's poem that it is important not wait so long between crits. Even though the rules don't spell it out, I think it is a given.
I have been on the other side of it also. I remember posting a poem on a site only to have no one comment on my poem except for a sharp reprimand that I needed to give in order to receive. My feathers were ruffled but I returned and did my share. I am not just pointing out emuse--but there has been a lackadaisical attitude that it is ok to post one and crit one, post one and crit none and post days later. It just isn't consistent. I know what it is to be busy, have computers go down, family matters, etc... but why not just crit two again before you post your poem? This isn't rocket science! We all know that this is why PG is the quality place to come for real crits and talented poets.
If I have offended emuse--it was not my intention. I think it is important to carry your own weight (myself included) to keep this forum going.

Cheers,
Kimberly

[pseud]

Yes, you're all right. At least about me. I've felt like I'm not contributing for a few months now...the problem is getting back in the swing of it. I'm much busier than I thought I would be this semester, and spend more time in a car and at a new job where internet is almost completely out of the question.

Point taken. Will try to up the crits, which is probably the best if not only answer -

- Caleb

[Lia]

Julia, I don’t feel that emuse should have been involved in this though. Looking at her history, she’s given 3 separate comments on other people’s work. The last being on Thurs and then a couple of days later she has posted her poem. In my mind she has given more than enough as a new member who has obviously read and respected the forum rules.

Perhaps we could add something to the posting rule like ‘At the time of posting your poem please offer at least two comments on other member’s work’ .. this will show the timescale if, of course, everyone’s happy with the rule.

I’ll hold my hands up here and say that I didn’t comment when I posted my last poem. I read and then jotted down on a post-it which poems had caught my attention ready for when I came on next.. just to give me time to chew them over really. I didn’t realise there was a timescale. I thought it was ok as long as it was within a handful of days. But all members, old and new, will need this timescale clarified won’t they, before they are reprimanded.

Lia

[David]

Yes, I agree, I (we all) could do with posting more crits, but the danger is that if we all start getting more dutiful about it, resentment creeps in, then cynicism, and it becomes more likely that the odd hurtful remark gets passed by someone "dutifully" commenting on something that doesn't enthuse (or appal) them.

I think I'd rather get two engaged crits than ten people saying "yeah nice poem man", or something that sounds like a hurried teacher's remark in a child's school report.

Mind you - "must try harder" - I won't argue with that.

Okay, let's give it a go.

David

By the way, Cam is dead right - we do have some good stuff going on here. Sometimes. Hurrah for us! (I mean that. Have you seen everypoet.org? The horror!)

[cameron]

The police state that is everypoet is obviously one solution to the problem of people not doing enough reviews. But, I assume, that most of us wouldn't want to go down that road i.e. where any transgression of the rules leads to immediate banishment.

PG is the namby-pamby, liberal alternative to everypoet. However, as a consequence, we do have to put up with a few freeloaders and the odd chancer.

We could "name and shame" those who are not pulling their weight? (Both in the poetry and prose sections!!)

Cam

[k-j]

We could "name and shame" those who are not pulling their weight? (Both in the poetry and prose sections!!)

Or, at the end of each week, the person with the lowest crit / post ratio has to go by the username "Sporky" for the next 7 days.

Seriously, I don't think the problem is a lack of critiques, and imposing some sort of time limit, as illustrated by JdB's comment to emuse, seems bizarre. I'm with Daivd - quite a few comments are perfunctory, and while not every crit is going to be a masterpiece, I'd like to see more time spent coming up with two or three substantive points in one critique rather than two or three one-line comments on different poems which add very little. I'd take one considered, in-depth crit over any number of quota-filling lightweight ones. Says the one who's contributed sod all of late, and I'm sure this is wishful thinking; still, there it is.

One other thing: Barrie mentions the lack of activity, but personally I'm not bothered at all about volume. As long as quality posters keep contributing now and again, I'll keep coming back to PG and checking.

[barrie]

I quite agree about 'one liners' - But I'm not talking about fulfilling quotas - Like I said, two crits should be just a guideline, a minimum. Most (all) regular posters are quite capable of writing helpful comments - and that's what we need. I'm not saying do ten a day, but we all need to do more. You must agree that when the site's stagnant it doesn't encourage participation - as the past few weeks have shown - there always tends to be more life in flowing water. I'm not here to berate anyone, just to remind everyone that we all depend upon one another, and, as has been said many times before, the more we all put in, the more we get back.
Just my attempt to get things going again - like they were up to a couple of months ago - but let's aim higher.

Barrie

[David]

Actually, while we're having a free and frank discussion, I'd just like to mention that one of my own bugbears is when you actually do post a criticism of someone's poem - sometimes, you think, a particularly helpful and apposite criticism - and it goes unanswered and even unacknowledged.

Now that really pisses me off.

[barrie]

David - You're not the only one to feel like that - It's only good manners to acknowledge a person who's taken the time to comment on your work. Obviously some people just don't see it like that - but it still tends to feel like a slight.

Barrie

[spencer_broughton]

Well, I'm fairly new to this website despite the start date. I only really got involved a few months ago. I agree that it has seemed very quiet recently.

It is hard to write critiques, and I don't think I've ever written a long in-depth one myself. I think this is due to feeling slightly inadequate compared to the author of the poem. Plus I don't get that long to do them because I'm usually at work. Or sometimes you just don't have much to say about the poem.

Personally, I've had the old writer's block disease which in turn doesn't make you feel much like reading other people's work.

I think this is a really good place to submit your work for criticism. And there is more quality posts than other forums. It's usually very friendly, but I think that it can be a little off-putting. For instance you all mention regular posters and that they'll 'know who they are', but that can make other members feel a bit isolated.

I'm rambling a little. Anyway, I'll try and write more crits, as useful(or less) as they might be!

[barrie]

No need to feel isolated - Think of it as a pub. You've already decided that it's friendly, you've already struck up a few conversations, you're beginning to get acquainted with one or two people, your name is recognized and you keep coming back in for a drink - you seem to be quite a regular as far as I can see.

No need to feel inadequate when writing crits, we're all here to improve our writing skills and your crits will improve along with everything else.

Now then - it's your round, lass.

Barrie

[spencer_broughton]

Haha! You remember I'm from Sheffield an am female, that's a start.

Aye, a'l sup wi'thee if tha payin'.

[juliadebeauvoir]

Glad to see some light heartedness here .
I read over the comments and all I can say is that I am sorry if some of you thought I was out of line. I extend an apology to emuse--I hope that you will please give me the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't trying to be a nazi mod--I just really care about the integrity of the site. I honestly believed that the post one poem--crit two was at least during that time period or very close to it. So that is why I posted the reminder (which wasn't rude--I didn't cuss at anyone!). But after looking at the rules--you are right, it doesn't define it. It was just my interpretation.
I am not looking to set the bar so high that it discourages anyone--I think to go by the golden rule though, is a good start. Such as the suggestions that David and Barrie commented on, such as addressing the person commenting on your poem and thanking them by name.
It is good to see that it started a catalyst for discussion--something everyone was thinking and no one was addressing. So on that note, I will now crawl back into my humble pie and try to write some poetry!

Cheers,
Kimberly

[camus]

Indeed,

I hold up my hands, guilty as charged, especially where the crits are concerned.

In my defence I'm on the fooking interweb all day, when it comes to relaxing (PG once was once a fine relaxant) the inclination to post seems to have withered. I shall try to make it so once again.

I do agree with David's dutiful comment though, as with all things a balance needs to be found.

My bugbear whilst we are at it, is people being too tightly wound! I remember when this place started - we had a laugh took the piss a little, I posted inordinate amounts of drivel, I shall do so again, well balanced drivel hopefully.

All that aside I would hate to see this place go under, so once again "Must try Harder" echoes down the halls of the interweb.

[David]

Kris:

My bugbear whilst we are at it, is people being too tightly wound! I remember when this place started - we had a laugh took the piss a little, I posted inordinate amounts of drivel, I shall do so again, well balanced drivel hopefully.

I like the sound of that. Let's use that as our mission statement. I'm serious. Let the well balanced drivel be unconfined.

Bloody mission statements. Even primary schools have to have them now. Bollocks!!!

See, I'm getting the hang of it. We should all have a go. You don't have to use three exclamation marks first time out, if you don't want to. Two will be fine.

But then, even now the angel of good behaviour hovers over my shoulder, saying oh wait, Kris might think you're taking the piss (which I'm not), maybe you better hadn't say that.

Ah fuck it.

[camus]

Ah fuck it.

That's the attitude!!

[cameron]

Ah, yes, in the early days this forum was like the Wild West. Before we started activating/vetting members we used to have regular "nutter alerts" - with pseud as peacemaker, Keith riding shotgun and Kris in charge of bad language. Ha, ha.

Much more civilised these days.

Cam

[barrie]

Them wert days, eh? You're sounding like an old Yorkshireman, Cam.

The were all fields rahnd 'ere an' tha could go aht wi tuppence in thi pocket an' feel like a king!

Ad best shurrup - I remember going out on a quid - and that included a curry for half a crown!

Barrie

[spencer_broughton]

You old old farts!

[barrie]

Yeah - But we smell nice.

[Bombadil]

Perhaps the shotgun should be resurrected. I'd given it over when I went green. Can't hug trees and shoot at fuckwits at the same time, can you. I think I shall endeavour to try.

For my part, I know I don't do in depth crits and my volume is low as well. Still, that reaches back to the prior paragraph.

I am here to stay. This is the only poetry forum that I'll have, and the only one that'll have me as pseud can vouchsafe for.

That's it, then. I'm bringing back the hammer and the nails!

Fuck yeh.

Keith

[pseud]

Before we started activating/vetting members we used to have regular "nutter alerts" - with pseud as peacemaker...

I draw the line at Duncan Williams!

And technically if we're talking Wild West, peacemaker is a giant revolver, in which case Keith would be the better correlate...but whateva.

- Caleb

[barrie]

And here was I thinking Henry Kissinger.....