Marilyn's Paradox (villanelle) (Revision 3) + nudge

[JJWilliamson]

Marilyn and Joe 002.JPG (114.9 KiB) Viewed 5378 times

She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The media spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Revision 1

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her quivering mouth was like a talent scout,
and focused eyes attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Original

She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her anxious mouth was like a talent scout,
and twitching smiles attracted diverse lips.
Her loves saw what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential slips,
the studios responded to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.

[bodkin]

Love a villanelle and this is working well...

...except, maybe the last line? Are L9 and the last line not contradicting one another?

I'm wondering if you're meaning something slightly different from how I took the end?

Ian

[Moth]

I'm guessing that's the paradox. Lovers of Marilyn in every sense of the word wanting to believe in the darling-of-the-big-screen legend so denying to themselves what they know all along is the truth i.e. that she was only human, so any contradictions seem apt. Of course doubts about the nature of her death could be read into the final line as well. Good piece, anyway and good artwork - interesting larger image as her typical beauty appears to be marred on one side when I focus on the open eye. Very befitting of the poem.

[Luce]

Not quite getting or rather believing in the premise of the villanelle. There was no doubt that Marilyn was the ultimate sex symbol to her fans. The other side of Marilyn was pretty much hidden. Even her death spelled sex to most of her fans since she was found naked in bed.

I think the real paradox is that even when she did show normal human flaws, it wasn't believed. It had a lot to do with her dying so young. The public never saw her age, grow frail, etc.

Luce

Additional Comments.

She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Not quite liking the 2nd line. It's a bit comical. I imagine a pair of eyes walking down the strip. I think it's the word "cavorted" that I'm disliking. Maybe concentrate on what eyes can actually do (glancing, surveying, searching, etc.).

Not buying the last line which throws the whole poem off for me.

Her anxious mouth was like a talent scout,

I love this line. But, maybe "hungry" as oppose to "anxious" would be better.

and twitching smiles attracted diverse lips.
Her loves saw what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

Wow. Is this reporters's quote true? If so, nice touch to the poem.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

Nice section. It proves that even, after her death, most fans would disregard the reality and maintain the dream.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential slips,
the studios responded to the doubt.

Would love to see tryst instead of slips in the second line. It's a bit of an off rhyme but not by much.

The last line is puzzling. Doubt what? It seems as if you're having trouble with that refrain fitting as the poem progresses along.

moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.[/quote]

Not buying the possible interpretation that Marilyn didn't die. The rumor that she was murdered because of her affairs with John and Bobby Kennedy has more credence.

It is so hard to write a poem or anything about MM. She has been written to death. Fifth years plus after her death, most of the public still can't let her go. She gets recreated by artists and writers over and over again. This makes writing about her especially challenging.

Luce

P.S. It's funny but I don't see any flaws in the pic. I guess, deep inside, I'm a fan, even though I was a child when she died.

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks, Ian

Love a villanelle and this is working well. ...Ah, good. I'm thinking of switching to blank verse to get the full story out, but I thought I'd give it a whirl.

...except, maybe the last line? Are L9 and the last line not contradicting one another? ...You've hit on the my most immediate problem. Not all of her 'paramours' were male. I'm hinting at her pansexuality but it's still not coming across. Her husbands were a little confused and Joe Di Maggio was a little jealous of her. She always gave the impression that she needed to be loved. Would have been ninety now, had she lived.

I'm wondering if you're meaning something slightly different from how I took the end? ...The doubt is about her sexuality, behaviour and public image.

Ian

Best

JJ

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks, Moth

I'm guessing that's the paradox. Lovers of Marilyn in every sense of the word wanting to believe in the darling-of-the-big-screen legend so denying to themselves what they know all along is the truth i.e. that she was only human, so any contradictions seem apt. ...That's very true "Lovers in every sense of the word". She had a difficult start to life and seemed to need love wherever she could find it, often cleaving to those who showed her affection and guidance. The suggestions of pansexuality are quite strong. She herself said that love should be the deciding factor when it came to love making.

Of course doubts about the nature of her death could be read into the final line as well. Good piece, anyway and good artwork - interesting larger image as her typical beauty appears to be marred on one side when I focus on the open eye. Very befitting of the poem. ...Thanks again. I've still got a nudge or two to make to the drawing. It is a bit lopsided.

Best

JJ


Thanks, Luce, for showing me the problems as you see them. Appreciated.

Not quite getting or rather believing in the premise of the villanelle. There was no doubt that Marilyn was the ultimate sex symbol to her fans. The other side of Marilyn was pretty much hidden. Even her death spelled sex to most of her fans since she was found naked in bed. ...I thought she always slept naked. I think parts of S1 need to be addressed. Her private life was hidden to a certain extent but some snippets and speculation based on the things she and others said have emerged. Elizabeth Taylor allegedly had an encounter with her, apparently saying that she let Marilyn do all the work. So did the actress in cameo in the drawing.

I think the real paradox is that even when she did show normal human flaws, it wasn't believed. It had a lot to do with her dying so young. The public never saw her age, grow frail, etc. ...That's so true. In death we are left with her movies, undying beauty, lots of songs, poems, paintings and speculation, all mixed with the occasional insight into her private life.

Luce

Additional Comments.

She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Not quite liking the 2nd line. It's a bit comical. I imagine a pair of eyes walking down the strip. I think it's the word "cavorted" that I'm disliking. Maybe concentrate on what eyes can actually do (glancing, surveying, searching, etc.). ...Agreed. Line 2 requires an overhaul.

Not buying the last line which throws the whole poem off for me. ...Not quite sure what you mean here. I'm hinting that the fans were doubtful about her image, love life, security, state of mind and apparent scatty behaviour.
Her anxious mouth was like a talent scout,

I love this line. But, maybe "hungry" as oppose to "anxious" would be better. ...Yes, that would be good. when talking she always seemed a bit anxious. I remember Agatha Christie writing about the girl with the anxious eyes. But if it's not working I could try for a more tangible image. Could move 'anxious' to S1 and change 'cavorted'. Thanks again.

and twitching smiles attracted diverse lips.
Her loves saw what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

Wow. Is this reporters's quote true? If so, nice touch to the poem. ...It's true.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

Nice section. It proves that even, after her death, most fans would disregard the reality and maintain the dream. ...And people were making a fuss about nothing. So she used buttons to enhance her bits from time to time. It's nothing compared to the manipulations of today.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential slips,
the studios responded to the doubt.

Would love to see tryst instead of slips in the second line. It's a bit of an off rhyme but not by much. ...I like 'tryst'. I think I'll use that in revision. It is a break from the tight rhyme but I think most people would let me off the hook if I strayed a bit. (That's what Marilyn thought)

The last line is puzzling. Doubt what? It seems as if you're having trouble with that refrain fitting as the poem progresses along. ...The femmes fatales is plural and the studios were keen to cover up her assignations with females. Her pansexuality meant she was sexually unbridled, seeing love as the deciding factor for love making. I think I've buried this too deeply.

moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.

Not buying the possible interpretation that Marilyn didn't die. ...Is that how it came across? Nothing was further from my mind. I'll have another look.

The rumor that she was murdered because of her affairs with John and Bobby Kennedy has more credence. ...Her 'gentlemen' were her husbands and longish term lovers.

It is so hard to write a poem or anything about MM. She has been written to death. ...True! I was hoping for a different slant. Fifth years plus after her death, most of the public still can't let her go. She gets recreated by artists and writers over and over again. This makes writing about her especially challenging. ...That much will always be true, I think. In death she achieved legendary status.

Luce

P.S. It's funny but I don't see any flaws in the pic. I guess, deep inside, I'm a fan, even though I was a child when she died.

I think we're all drawn to the story and image that was Marilyn. Ninety years old and still going strong.

Thank you very much for highlighting the difficulties. I'm trying to cover the pansexuality, and other things, but I haven't manage it yet.

Best

JJ

[Antcliff]

Hi JJ

I thought it largely worked. The doubt-link is a nice way of pulling it together.

I admit I did not not quite understand this bit...

Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her eyes cavorted because of this?

On what you said to Ian's query....I see, but if bi/metro-sexuality is entering there, I think it may need to be clearer. My inclination was to ask the question Ian asked and my mind did not move towards that as a solution to the paradox...though maybe it should and I am just a square...can I be given a bit more of a nudge towards it?

Seth

[trobbo44]

This poem provides an insight into the jealousies and insecurities of a judgmental society, certainly more than the frailties of Maralyn. This poem casts a strengh about her, rather than the pity that was eventually felt. Good write. Terry

[bodkin]

Like Seth, I don't think I would read any sexual-preference meaning into the last line...

Of course I'm not a scholar of her life...

Ian

[JJWilliamson]

Thank you, Gentlemen

Hi JJ

I thought it largely worked. The doubt-link is a nice way of pulling it together.

I admit I did not not quite understand this bit...

Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

...Yip, I've a change in the offing to try and open that line up. Radical rewrite on its way. This section, that is.

Her eyes cavorted because of this?

On what you said to Ian's query....I see, but if bi/metro-sexuality is entering there, I think it may need to be clearer. My inclination was to ask the question Ian asked and my mind did not move towards that as a solution to the paradox...though maybe it should and I am just a square...can I be given a bit more of a nudge towards it? ...Yes, I've struggled to get that out without simply saying she loved men and women equally, with love acting as the deciding factor and not gender. In real life it was hinted at. Later a few big stars admitted to an encounter with M. Liz Taylor said she made M do all the "work". M refused a rematch with Joan Crawford because Joan scared her. So it's said. Allegedly. There are others, but she did really love men as well. I've addressed this with a revision, which I'll post soon.

Seth

This poem provides an insight into the jealousies and insecurities of a judgmental society, certainly more than the frailties of Maralyn. This poem casts a strengh about her, rather than the pity that was eventually felt. Good write. Terry

Yes! That's a major part of the poem's premise. She was something of an enigma.

Like Seth, I don't think I would read any sexual-preference meaning into the last line...

Of course I'm not a scholar of her life...

I'm hoping the revision will open the concluding lines. If not I'll try again. Thanks for getting back.

Ian

Thanks again for the very helpful comments.

Best to all

JJ

[JJWilliamson]

Revision 2 up. The switch seems obvious but it only came to me a few minutes after posting Revision 1.

JJ

[bodkin]

That seems much more clear now. I think you are more strongly hinting at what you want to say. Although I still wonder if I personally would know enough about MM to have got it without your notes.

I'd definitely have got it if you were writing about Marlene Dietrich, but I suspect this is just my unfamiliarity rather than anything you need to address in the poem.

I also like that you've squeezed a little more playfulness into the repetends now...

Still enjoying it.

Ian

[Lou]

HI JJ,

I've read this one a few times but I'm still having trouble getting a handle on it. Your premise seems to be that MM was a normal woman but also at the same time an extraordinary woman. To some extent we all demonstrate this paradox, no one is quite what they seem. I want more bang for my buck and think you would do better concentrating on just one aspect of MM's character - her faux intellectualism for instance, or the stag movie she made in the 1940s when she didn't particularly need the money. I think you want to bring this poem into focus and tell us something about the star we don't know.

Best,
Lou

[JJWilliamson]

Hi, Lou

Thanks for the comments. Appreciated.

In a nutshell it's about Marilyn's penchant for women as well as men. Her reputation as a man eater or femme fatale was well documented or exaggerated, and yet little was said of her high brow affairs unless they were with men. The studios were often at pains to protect her gorgeous, hetero, starlet image. She had flirtations with some big female stars. It's also rumoured/reported she felt great discomfort when "entertaining" men. Her need for love is well documented and I've seen the interview where she said that love was what mattered, not gender.

Her men were in doubt but her ladies were not.

Best

JJ

HI JJ,

I've read this one a few times but I'm still having trouble getting a handle on it. Your premise seems to be that MM was a normal woman but also at the same time an extraordinary woman. To some extent we all demonstrate this paradox, no one is quite what they seem. I want more bang for my buck and think you would do better concentrating on just one aspect of MM's character - her faux intellectualism for instance, or the stag movie she made in the 1940s when she didn't particularly need the money. I think you want to bring this poem into focus and tell us something about the star we don't know.

Best,
Lou

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks once again, Ian. It's good to know how the revisions are faring.

That seems much more clear now. I think you are more strongly hinting at what you want to say. Although I still wonder if I personally would know enough about MM to have got it without your notes. ...I know what you mean. Lou's having similar thoughts. Anyway, it's coming along.

I'd definitely have got it if you were writing about Marlene Dietrich, but I suspect this is just my unfamiliarity rather than anything you need to address in the poem. ...She was one of M's lovers and is the other lady in the drawing.

I also like that you've squeezed a little more playfulness into the repetends now...Thanks for that. The rep's are tricky, given that they should carry a subtle difference or slant.

Still enjoying it.

Ian

Best

JJ

[ray miller]

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about? - She had broad tastes?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout - nice line
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”. - I really can't imagine any reporter of the time using words like these
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Pretty good - for a villanelle.

[Luce]

The latest revision sounds a tad better JJ. But I think if the main intent was to show that Marilyn was bisexual, then I think you need to drop heavier hints. In the end, it may be better to focus on the contrast between her public image of being heterosexual compared sharply to her liking both men and women.

Luce

Marilyn and Joe 002.JPG

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Maybe to give a heavier hint of her bisexuality, 2nd line could
be something like this: "her secret needs hidden but filled on strips".

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Can you use "seductive" instead of "quivering". Not quite sure if it fits your meter.
Also, I'm wondering if naming a supposed "woman" lover would be better for the
last line in this tercet. Marilyn supposedly had an affair with Marlene Dietrich.

"Marlene knew what the fuss was all about."

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Revision 1

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her quivering mouth was like a talent scout,
and focused eyes attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Original

She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her anxious mouth was like a talent scout,
and twitching smiles attracted diverse lips.
Her loves saw what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about?

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential slips,
the studios responded to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her ways, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.

[JJWilliamson]

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about? - She had broad tastes? ...I like it!! He said, quietly slotting it into his latest revision.
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout - nice line
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”. - I really can't imagine any reporter of the time using words like these ...Yip, they did and not much later. I remember thinking it was one of the most ridiculous things I'd ever heard in my life.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.


Pretty good - for a villanelle. ...I can't decide if I like them or not.

Best

JJ

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks, Luce, for some more sound reasoning.

The latest revision sounds a tad better JJ. But I think if the main intent was to show that Marilyn was bisexual, then I think you need to drop heavier hints. In the end, it may be better to focus on the contrast between her public image of being heterosexual compared sharply to her liking both men and women. ...It wasn't that she was bisexual or really that she had diverse tastes, more that she was known for her man eating, predatory antics, when she did, in fact, have strong feelings for women. The central premise, for me, is her pansexuality, as it reveals her need to be loved and admired over and over by both sexes. Her story also reveals an insecurity that she kept hidden (kind of). One of the reasons I chose this image for my drawing was I always thought there was a pain behind that sexy pose, one she couldn't quite hide. Granted, I might be imagining it, but from the first time I saw the pic I felt she was in pain and overexploited.

She often cleaved to mother AND father figures and would happily engage in sexual activities if she felt a warmth, which described as love. It's the fact that her sexual desires were driven by love and not gender that caught my attention. She appeared to have no preference, which marks her out as pansexual rather than bisexual, although some argue it's an extension of the same thing. My interest sparked the villanelle because I felt the form mimicked the repetitive nature of Marilyn's behaviour. It seemed appropriate, although it might work as a triolet and even a sestina. "might"

A woman's name! Yes!! Marlene is staring at me and I missed the meter of her name. marLENE. Consider it used. If that doesn't work I'm giving up. Yes, I know, maybe I shouldn't have started in the first place.

Luce

Thanks again

Best

JJ

Marilyn and Joe 002.JPG

She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt.

Maybe to give a heavier hint of her bisexuality, 2nd line could
be something like this: "her secret needs hidden but filled on strips".

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about.

Can you use "seductive" instead of "quivering". Not quite sure if it fits your meter.
Also, I'm wondering if naming a supposed "woman" lover would be better for the
last line in this tercet. Marilyn supposedly had an affair with Marlene Dietrich.

"Marlene knew what the fuss was all about."

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had her tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.

[Moth]

One of the reasons I chose this image for my drawing was I always thought there was a pain behind that sexy pose

That's what I picked up on (as opposed to the drawing being flawed).

Thoughts on the revision:

She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about? - excellent
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips - kind of miss cavorted but this fits.
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt. - not keen on the because, not sure it makes sense in context. Fans were only sometimes..?

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
Marlene knew what the fuss was all about. - hate the name change. I'd go back to girls... girls knowing rather than the girls

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.

The moguls spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.................... Final four verses are marvelous.

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks, Moth

Yes, the wordplay with 'broad' was Ray's suggestion. I laughed my socks off when I first saw it. Makes the vill' for me.

I've been looking at Marlene ever since I put her there. I can't get Only Fools and Horses out of my mind when I read her name.
If I use Marlene Dietrich the problem would all but disappear. I could use just 'Dietrich' but it sounds a bit judgemental and scathing.
'Girls' is a definite possibility and one I'm favouring at the mo'. It gives me a headless iamb against a background of iambic pentameter,
so the meter holds up.

Her fans were quick to forget the scandals so I thought 'sometimes' was appropriate. The manoeuvring can be seen as carefully selective and well timed to
deliberate displays of men. They were heady days.

Thanks very much for getting back. Appreciated.

Best

JJ

[Macavity]

Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips

I quite liked the sultry JJ, added sex in the poem, but perhaps the cavorted was too much. The anxious mind manoeuvred feels bloodless in comparison.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

The media feeding frenzy...ugh!

I thought the mechanistic form worked in the sense of the human trapped in the machine - that web of media/society's expectations/opinions.

Another good one JJ!

best

mac

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks, mac

Her sultry eyes cavorted on the strips

I quite liked the sultry JJ, added sex in the poem, but perhaps the cavorted was too much. The anxious mind manoeuvred feels bloodless in comparison. ...It's to emphasise the rumour quashing, strategic planning.

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.

The media feeding frenzy...ugh!

I thought the mechanistic form worked in the sense of the human trapped in the machine - that web of media/society's expectations/opinions. ...Exactly my thoughts. Trapped in an ever spinning web.

Another good one JJ! ...I will post another vill' I will, I will - not.

best

mac

Best

JJ

[Katherine]

She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?....... She was bisexual? So, she had a taste for 'broads?
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt......... 'strips'? Don't get the 'doubt' bit.

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about................She went with blokes, but she preferred women and was predatorial - like the 'casting coach' men?

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.If they said that, here started the anorexic look!
Her paramours were never left in doubt.Doubt of what?

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about. Lost me here.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.............. Which doubt? This is where it all gets too complicated. Doubt about her beauty, her sexuality or doubts about the men/women who fancied her?

The media spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.
An interesting take. I have a feeling that this is referring to sexuality. As a Briton, I've always found that sexuality is discussed in a rather juvenile way. There's a belief (pretence) that we're accepting grown-ups, but there is always a snigger or two, behind backs. Still, I suppose that's better than the rabid rantings of some of Norma Jean's compatriots.
I really liked the poem JJ. What's there to doubt? What's the fuss about? x

[JJWilliamson]

Thanks Katherine

Some great details there. Appreciated.

You've hit on the recurring problem for the reader. I've tried to provide enough clues in both the drawing and the poem to hint at uncertainty. Most of the revelations about Marilyn's sexuality came after her death when the extent of her love and preferences was revealed. So she was a bit of a femme fatale, a temptress, who was drawn to femmes fatales and father figures. She definitely had a need to be loved, or to feel loved. Her interp' of love might not necessarily be "conventional" but she expressed it freely. Joe Di Maggio was particularly upset by her death yet he had his doubts all through their relationship, which extended beyond their divorce. So, yes, her pansexuality is at the fore and I, personally, can't see what the fuss was all about. The media circus rolled out the big top and off they went on another "shocking" drama. She had her tastes and ways but haven't we all. Some further comments in line.

She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?....... She was bisexual? So, she had a taste for 'broads? ...Yes! Brilliant isn't it? Ray's idea, actually.
Her anxious mind manoeuvred on the strips
because her fans were sometimes full of doubt......... 'strips'? Don't get the 'doubt' bit....She was often seen cavorting on the strips with men in tow. Was it a strategy? I don't really know, but her bisexuality was kept hush hush. Her fans were sometimes curious as to her true nature and this remained the case throughout her life. However, the fans were quick to forget and move on until the next episode rekindled their doubt. It could read, but can't, "sometimes full of doubt about her sexuality".

Her focused eyes were like a talent scout
and quivering smiles attracted diverse lips.
The girls knew what the fuss was all about................She went with blokes, but she preferred women and was predatorial - like the 'casting coach' men? ...More her ladyfriends were aware of her covert activities because they were there. ...(Not a bad rhyme there.)

Reporters said, “The lady’s rather stout,
with shapeless folds of fat around her hips”.If they said that, here started the anorexic look! ...Her curvaceous look went out of fashion. Thank the Lord it came back.
Her paramours were never left in doubt.Doubt of what? ...'Paramours' is another hint at a feminine lover, even though it can also apply to men. They knew she had a proclivity for women. I'm trying to bring the details out without actually stating it directly.

And when her ladies threw her ‘D’ cups out,
they claimed she’d used small buttons for the tips.
I don’t know what the fuss was all about. Lost me here. ...They discovered she used small buttons to give her breasts that pointed look. Seems almost ridiculous to even mention it given the manipulations of today.

When anchormen began to shriek and shout
of femmes fatales and presidential trysts,
the studios reacted to the doubt.............. Which doubt? This is where it all gets too complicated. Doubt about her beauty, her sexuality or doubts about the men/women who fancied her? ...Doubts about her intentions. The newsmen had a field day when she openly flirted with JFK, which disturbed many people, and the studios usually reacted to any doubt when it concerned their stars. Doubt about her sexuality and her man-eating ways was never far away.

The media spun her fabricated pout
and conned the crowds with endless Pathe clips.
She had broad tastes, so what’s the fuss about?
Her gentlemen were often full of doubt.
An interesting take. I have a feeling that this is referring to sexuality. As a Briton, I've always found that sexuality is discussed in a rather juvenile way. There's a belief (pretence) that we're accepting grown-ups, but there is always a snigger or two, behind backs. Still, I suppose that's better than the rabid rantings of some of Norma Jean's compatriots.
I really liked the poem JJ. What's there to doubt? What's the fuss about? x

There's a good chance I've tried too pack to much into a small space but I really felt the villanelle form worked well with the ever repeating cycles of her life.

Thanks again for asking those questions. It's good to know how a poem is being received and that can only come about through comments and reasoned critique.

Best

JJ