Ancestral altars
skecthed out maps
sacrificial notions
these dangling hats
lost buoys, no docking guide,
torches bloom on the curvature line
illuminating nautical paths
teasing screaming hampered hearts
western guns
eastern musings,
Teutonic brains
shaking up craniums
confused moth, lunar drowsed
refreshing browser and clearing cache
every sentence read caused posting back,
ambiguities, all prejudice lead
correllation cleansing haven?,
if confusion leads to resolution,
then affirmative action toward the horizon,
excused, for periodic bouts of procrastination
how soon is now? Mr Morrissey,
for how long should we stare?
kindred siblings and lonely heirs
to no certain particulars
Son & Heir
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beautifulloser
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Last edited by beautifulloser on Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm sick of it, sick of it all. I know I'm right and I don't give a shit!
I've been coming back to this all day and I'm not sure I've sorted out my thoughts.
Some lines I definitely dont get:
teasing screaming hampered hearts
Bavarian brains
shaking up crainiums
correlation cleansing haven?,
Quite a lot of other lines I'm not confident I understand. There's a lot going on here, and I need to keep the title constantly in mind to aid interpretation.
The use of punctuation seems inconsistent and doesnt always support the meaning.
The dominant argument seems to go that poetry best not being as vague or demanding interpretation as, say, painting can be. I'm not sure about that, but I get the feeling you want to convey something more specific. For me, whatever that is can be drowned out (all too often in my own writing) by too many competing images, ideas, perspectives, metaphors etc.
I was wondering whether you were musical, because there's a lot of melody in there, and then spotted the myspace strapline to your posts. (Ace voice by the way!)
As Wabznasm said in response to an earlier poem from you (and excuse the paucity of this crit compared to that), Keep it up; don't lose your style. The art is in taming it, I guess.
Some lines I definitely dont get:
teasing screaming hampered hearts
Bavarian brains
shaking up crainiums
correlation cleansing haven?,
Quite a lot of other lines I'm not confident I understand. There's a lot going on here, and I need to keep the title constantly in mind to aid interpretation.
The use of punctuation seems inconsistent and doesnt always support the meaning.
The dominant argument seems to go that poetry best not being as vague or demanding interpretation as, say, painting can be. I'm not sure about that, but I get the feeling you want to convey something more specific. For me, whatever that is can be drowned out (all too often in my own writing) by too many competing images, ideas, perspectives, metaphors etc.
I was wondering whether you were musical, because there's a lot of melody in there, and then spotted the myspace strapline to your posts. (Ace voice by the way!)
As Wabznasm said in response to an earlier poem from you (and excuse the paucity of this crit compared to that), Keep it up; don't lose your style. The art is in taming it, I guess.
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beautifulloser
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Hey Glob - thanks for the post, and coming back to it "all day" - intriguing.
Grammatically, my work has never been that good, frustrating when it hampers the read. I'll answer some of your questions though without dissecting this too much for another crit (hopefully).
teasing screaming hampered hearts - there are many lights on the horizon, all fundamentally different and elaborated on in the follow stanza. They all demand attention, so moving toward any one in encumbering. Also, "hamper" is necessary but encumbering equipment on a ship and I was trying to play out that pun. The net effect is a feeling of frustration, screaming - not enough time to consume all options.
Bavarian brains
shaking up crainiums - Just a few: Kantar(?), Nietschze, Shopenhauer, Kant . . . . .
correlation cleansing haven?, - this is the sea, or the voyage. Seeing the lights (the aforementioned list), understanding there high level connoation allows, or should allow, dissection of there disparate parts.
I am musical - and thanksfor the compliment - this was intended as a poem though, but interesting you say that . . . .
Does this assist the read a little?
Cheers
BL
x
Grammatically, my work has never been that good, frustrating when it hampers the read. I'll answer some of your questions though without dissecting this too much for another crit (hopefully).
teasing screaming hampered hearts - there are many lights on the horizon, all fundamentally different and elaborated on in the follow stanza. They all demand attention, so moving toward any one in encumbering. Also, "hamper" is necessary but encumbering equipment on a ship and I was trying to play out that pun. The net effect is a feeling of frustration, screaming - not enough time to consume all options.
Bavarian brains
shaking up crainiums - Just a few: Kantar(?), Nietschze, Shopenhauer, Kant . . . . .
correlation cleansing haven?, - this is the sea, or the voyage. Seeing the lights (the aforementioned list), understanding there high level connoation allows, or should allow, dissection of there disparate parts.
I am musical - and thanksfor the compliment - this was intended as a poem though, but interesting you say that . . . .
Does this assist the read a little?
Cheers
BL
x
I'm sick of it, sick of it all. I know I'm right and I don't give a shit!
Um, kind of?!
Not heard of a philosopher called Kantar, but it is the official Egyptian weight unit for measuring cotton. Probably not what you mean though.
After rewriting this crit 4 times it's finally, maybe, sunk in. Maybe it's my literalism, but that was not easy to arrive at. There's nothing to give me a clue other than some of S3 as to what you are actually talking about. Nevertheless, once you see it, it makes more sense.
My other main crit would be that there's no sense of personal engagement with the narrator - why should I care? Or rather, who should I care about and why? What happened to them? Is it all a parlour game or do they have choices /decisions and need the steer of moral philosophy. I'd thought Son and Heir meant the topic was managing family turmoil, expectations and self identity; perhaps it's worth developing that as angle?
Not detailed critting, sorry - doesn't seem right and I'm not sharp enough yet!
Not heard of a philosopher called Kantar, but it is the official Egyptian weight unit for measuring cotton. Probably not what you mean though.
After rewriting this crit 4 times it's finally, maybe, sunk in. Maybe it's my literalism, but that was not easy to arrive at. There's nothing to give me a clue other than some of S3 as to what you are actually talking about. Nevertheless, once you see it, it makes more sense.
My other main crit would be that there's no sense of personal engagement with the narrator - why should I care? Or rather, who should I care about and why? What happened to them? Is it all a parlour game or do they have choices /decisions and need the steer of moral philosophy. I'd thought Son and Heir meant the topic was managing family turmoil, expectations and self identity; perhaps it's worth developing that as angle?
Not detailed critting, sorry - doesn't seem right and I'm not sharp enough yet!
Hey BL, I kind of agree with Globus - this reads more like a song lyric than a poem. Interesting song lyric, admittedly, but I think you'll find - as I did, eventually - that the disciplines are very different. Song lyrics can be much more impressionistic.
Mind you, I suppose some people can produce great impressionistic poetry, so the distinction is probably not as hard and fast as I seem to think. Hmm.
One thing I would definitely say about impressionistic poems is that you needn't feel obliged to rhyme. I think it's cramping your style. Time to take those particular water wings off!
On a more pedantic note, which is really one of my favourite notes, all those guys aren't actually Bavarian, are they? That's poetry - taking infinite care about the words you use. And use as few latinisms (resolution, procrastination) as you can.
Good interesting read, though. You have to keep on being yourself. You'll get better at reflecting who you are in what you write.
I hope that's helpful.
Cheers
David
Mind you, I suppose some people can produce great impressionistic poetry, so the distinction is probably not as hard and fast as I seem to think. Hmm.
One thing I would definitely say about impressionistic poems is that you needn't feel obliged to rhyme. I think it's cramping your style. Time to take those particular water wings off!
On a more pedantic note, which is really one of my favourite notes, all those guys aren't actually Bavarian, are they? That's poetry - taking infinite care about the words you use. And use as few latinisms (resolution, procrastination) as you can.
Good interesting read, though. You have to keep on being yourself. You'll get better at reflecting who you are in what you write.
I hope that's helpful.
Cheers
David
These dangling hats - ? I didn't get this bit. What are these dangling hats?
Bavarian brains is a bit confusing - Bavarian's too specific. Why not cast a wider net and say Teutonic brains? (typo -cranium)
It's very much in your song like style - I think you need to decide whether you go for a song or a poem - like David suggested, go for content instead of rhyme, images in free form, you don't need to make things rhyme.
Barrie.
Immanuel Kant
Bavarian brains is a bit confusing - Bavarian's too specific. Why not cast a wider net and say Teutonic brains? (typo -cranium)
It's very much in your song like style - I think you need to decide whether you go for a song or a poem - like David suggested, go for content instead of rhyme, images in free form, you don't need to make things rhyme.
Barrie.
Immanuel Kant
I agree with Barrie regarding "These dangling hats".I must confess, much of it is in the dark for me.But i like the flow.Thanks for sharing.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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beautifulloser
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Hey Chaps
Thanks again.
David - ""You have to keep on being yourself" - did this strike you as though it was me being myself or not? Understand what you mean on the other points though and appreciate the advice. I am struggling with the differentiation between lyrics and poems - and something most do not have many direct thoughts on, I guess it's so hard to articulate but I understand the criticism, oddly enough.
Glob - thanks for the crit and coming back again, I am not sure I can answer your questions, and being blunt I am not sure I do care or should care - I don't mean that across the board with poems I write, I just mean for this particular one as it's more of an ontalogical point, I like poetry that touches on that and I hoped enough was shown here for you to either agree there is too much knowledge and the values we get from our parents can be cast aside, in favor of our own, or not and I guess in a sentence that somes up what this is about? The last stanza particularly . . but I am not sure I am clarifying anything further by saying that - I appreciate you honestly saying there wasn't anything for you to "connect" with though, that's fair enough,
Barrie - "these dangling hats" were the scarificial notions, in hindsight perhaps a bit naff. Thanks for the suggestion, I much prefer that, thanks.
As for the song and poem point - I sat down to write this as a poem. I often cannot help tapping my foot when writing, or often look for some sort of "bounce" to the pace all be it, it may not be a melody, it's an in built thing but this was intended as a poem - back to more reading me thinks.
Thanks to all for your time and input.
Cheers
BL
Thanks again.
David - ""You have to keep on being yourself" - did this strike you as though it was me being myself or not? Understand what you mean on the other points though and appreciate the advice. I am struggling with the differentiation between lyrics and poems - and something most do not have many direct thoughts on, I guess it's so hard to articulate but I understand the criticism, oddly enough.
Glob - thanks for the crit and coming back again, I am not sure I can answer your questions, and being blunt I am not sure I do care or should care - I don't mean that across the board with poems I write, I just mean for this particular one as it's more of an ontalogical point, I like poetry that touches on that and I hoped enough was shown here for you to either agree there is too much knowledge and the values we get from our parents can be cast aside, in favor of our own, or not and I guess in a sentence that somes up what this is about? The last stanza particularly . . but I am not sure I am clarifying anything further by saying that - I appreciate you honestly saying there wasn't anything for you to "connect" with though, that's fair enough,
Barrie - "these dangling hats" were the scarificial notions, in hindsight perhaps a bit naff. Thanks for the suggestion, I much prefer that, thanks.
As for the song and poem point - I sat down to write this as a poem. I often cannot help tapping my foot when writing, or often look for some sort of "bounce" to the pace all be it, it may not be a melody, it's an in built thing but this was intended as a poem - back to more reading me thinks.
Thanks to all for your time and input.
Cheers
BL
I'm sick of it, sick of it all. I know I'm right and I don't give a shit!
Apologies for my reticence here recently BL. Because of the delay it seems most people have covered this, so perhaps my comments will be a little short -
It was, well, confusing! I didn't quite know what you were getting at as I was reading, which can be a problem when it seems to be such a deliberate act as this is. You've got all of the beads, but no thread. Oooh, there's a metaphor for you. I think there needs to be some sort of logic driving all of this, one that is at least vaguely clear. I had trouble with this because of its too subtle appearance.
One thing I like about your stuff is that you have intention. YOu want to twist something, to raise a point. That's always better than reading some of the rambling shit people write (not on here, but in general ** good, I'm covered now **). But I think you need to calm yourself down a bit. The point to this poem is, from what I can see, as grand and ambitious as your last one about conformity. It's good to look for truisms and ideas, but perhaps trying to localise them would be a better idea? Most good poems have a point, but most poems only go for the softest of points, or maybe even an example and not anything orginal at all. I reckon trying to attack a poem in that way could help. If someone writes poem upon poem dealing with the grandest metaphysics possible, people will think the writer can't do much else. If someone writes poems that cleverly deal with small situations and then occasionally deal with the grandest metaphysics, people will consider the writer 'ambitious'.
But as for the rest of the crit, everyone else has done a better job than I could have. This is lyrical, smooth and well written. But it needs some noticable grounding (this is a Pg-centric judgement by the way, there are some forums and poems out there that, arguably, forsake any sort of reality).
Sorry about the macro view,
Dave
It was, well, confusing! I didn't quite know what you were getting at as I was reading, which can be a problem when it seems to be such a deliberate act as this is. You've got all of the beads, but no thread. Oooh, there's a metaphor for you. I think there needs to be some sort of logic driving all of this, one that is at least vaguely clear. I had trouble with this because of its too subtle appearance.
One thing I like about your stuff is that you have intention. YOu want to twist something, to raise a point. That's always better than reading some of the rambling shit people write (not on here, but in general ** good, I'm covered now **). But I think you need to calm yourself down a bit. The point to this poem is, from what I can see, as grand and ambitious as your last one about conformity. It's good to look for truisms and ideas, but perhaps trying to localise them would be a better idea? Most good poems have a point, but most poems only go for the softest of points, or maybe even an example and not anything orginal at all. I reckon trying to attack a poem in that way could help. If someone writes poem upon poem dealing with the grandest metaphysics possible, people will think the writer can't do much else. If someone writes poems that cleverly deal with small situations and then occasionally deal with the grandest metaphysics, people will consider the writer 'ambitious'.
But as for the rest of the crit, everyone else has done a better job than I could have. This is lyrical, smooth and well written. But it needs some noticable grounding (this is a Pg-centric judgement by the way, there are some forums and poems out there that, arguably, forsake any sort of reality).
Sorry about the macro view,
Dave
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beautifulloser
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Dave
"Sorry about the macro view," - not at all, and thanks for dropping by to check this later effort out. Totally with you, fair criticism I think.
There was a thread, I have elaborated at the bottom as I was particularly happy with this piece, but obviously this has not come across as intended if at all - the subtle appearance as you say, this was in an attempt to really try and show and not tell, but there you go! Thanks for that though Dave.
2nd Paragrah - ha ha, careful Dave. Not sure what you mean about "perhaps trying to localise them would be a better idea?" I think I know what you mean, find inspiration in small things - I read Sunday Evening which is one of Ted Hughes Uncollected works - just about a Sparrow flicking debris out of a gutter, but some marvellous observations are in the poem - I think I understand you, and would be a worthwhile change, thanks I will give it a go.
Cheers all for the varied thoughts and suggestions
BL
x
There was a thread but perhaps it's too subtle, I'll paraphrase if nothing more than by means of wrapping this thread up:
S1 - Parents teach values, some delibertaely some not, therefore they're sketched. They are also disposable - there is a big wide world out there after all.
S2 - leaving home, we're lost in a sea of culture, knowledge - everything. It's all there for you to consume and enjoy and some will conflict what your parents have taught you.
S3 - a simple list of the aforementioned.
S4 - every new notion, idea, causes a revaluation of how you perceive yourself. I used the analosy of a internet browser, which is a bit technical, as browser's "cahce" or temporarily store information without needing to make trips back to the server to reteieve information from a database, therefore, everytime you get hold of some new information, you need to "post back" understand it's correlation to other things you know. Most of the time, those who live a monotonous life work with the "cache" they dont need to post back and revaluate as experience is always the same, if that makes sense!
S5 - Having all this information present, and only having one pair of hands and eyes is a confusing situation. What to do? Understanding there is so much knowledge makes you realise all epistimelogical correlations you have, are likely mostly just adequate at best.
S6 - Reference to How Soon is Now by the Smiths - "I am the son and heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar, I am the son and heir to nothing in particular". Our parents teach us their values, but how long should we stare at these beacons of knowledge before consuming them, should we bother at all? In this day and age, knowledge sharing is truly inter-continental - we are therefore sons and heirs to to a whole sphere of influence and no certain particular doctrines or dogma.
Thanks again guys
"Sorry about the macro view," - not at all, and thanks for dropping by to check this later effort out. Totally with you, fair criticism I think.
There was a thread, I have elaborated at the bottom as I was particularly happy with this piece, but obviously this has not come across as intended if at all - the subtle appearance as you say, this was in an attempt to really try and show and not tell, but there you go! Thanks for that though Dave.
2nd Paragrah - ha ha, careful Dave. Not sure what you mean about "perhaps trying to localise them would be a better idea?" I think I know what you mean, find inspiration in small things - I read Sunday Evening which is one of Ted Hughes Uncollected works - just about a Sparrow flicking debris out of a gutter, but some marvellous observations are in the poem - I think I understand you, and would be a worthwhile change, thanks I will give it a go.
Cheers all for the varied thoughts and suggestions
BL
x
There was a thread but perhaps it's too subtle, I'll paraphrase if nothing more than by means of wrapping this thread up:
S1 - Parents teach values, some delibertaely some not, therefore they're sketched. They are also disposable - there is a big wide world out there after all.
S2 - leaving home, we're lost in a sea of culture, knowledge - everything. It's all there for you to consume and enjoy and some will conflict what your parents have taught you.
S3 - a simple list of the aforementioned.
S4 - every new notion, idea, causes a revaluation of how you perceive yourself. I used the analosy of a internet browser, which is a bit technical, as browser's "cahce" or temporarily store information without needing to make trips back to the server to reteieve information from a database, therefore, everytime you get hold of some new information, you need to "post back" understand it's correlation to other things you know. Most of the time, those who live a monotonous life work with the "cache" they dont need to post back and revaluate as experience is always the same, if that makes sense!
S5 - Having all this information present, and only having one pair of hands and eyes is a confusing situation. What to do? Understanding there is so much knowledge makes you realise all epistimelogical correlations you have, are likely mostly just adequate at best.
S6 - Reference to How Soon is Now by the Smiths - "I am the son and heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar, I am the son and heir to nothing in particular". Our parents teach us their values, but how long should we stare at these beacons of knowledge before consuming them, should we bother at all? In this day and age, knowledge sharing is truly inter-continental - we are therefore sons and heirs to to a whole sphere of influence and no certain particular doctrines or dogma.
Thanks again guys
I'm sick of it, sick of it all. I know I'm right and I don't give a shit!