Poetry Forum

Version Two- The Non-Sweary One
I feel sorry for Mercury,
pock-marked
grey exposed

battered by solar geography

mathematically positioned
the wrong side of redemption


Version One - The Sweary One
I feel sorry for Mercury,
pock-marked
grey exposed

fucked by solar geography

mathematically positioned
the wrong side of redemption.

John, I enjoyed reading this. Should it be pock-marked though?
Sharra
x

"The wrong side of redemption"... nice line!
Would love to hear more...

Sharra, have changed the spelling - Ive alwasy said pot marked - got that from my dad -

Offy - cheers

Nice bit of street astronomy, John. I like it.

Cheers

David

P.S. I hadn't realised that Mercury is pock-marked. I thought it was just hot and gaseous but according to the indispensable Wikipedia "Mercury is similar in appearance to the Moon: it is heavily cratered with regions of smooth plains", so that's 1-0 to you.

Great stuff, realy enjoyed this, especially those last two lines.

Thanks for the positive feedback people.

David, I wrote this after watching Prof Coxs amazing Solar System programme and for some reason, he way he described it, well it just made me feel sorry for it!

Nash - cheers

Imaginitive and intriguing, if a bit baffling, as your stuff so often is, John.

I agree that 'the wrong side of redemption' sounds good, and maybe that's enough to justify the line's inclusion. I wouldn't argue, if you claimed it was. But god knows what it means. How about, simply, unredeemed? If that's what you had in mind, congrats - I'd call that poetic phrasing and no mistake! And, no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Can I ask a boring question - is it a JohnG policy that you will never write a poem without the word "Fuck" (or similar) in it? Or, at least, to use words like fuck and shit as often as possible? I've no objection if it is, I'm not offended (except, perhaps, in an academic sense). It's just that it sounds, to my ear, so....so...passe, so unreconstructed, so Angry Young Man, so "done". We've been there, got the T-shirt. Today, ways to offend have moved on - Fuck is no longer modern. It's not even post-modern. Or even neo post-modern. It's quite simply old-fashioned. It dates the poem, rather like using archaic elisions, such as "o'er" or "heav'n", or the grammical inversions so common before poetry's "modern" phase.

It can be done in contemporary poetry, of course, most famously as here http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm

But - personally - I think if you used it more sparingly, it would be more effective.

Cheers
peter

winged on the streets John estates gloom here aboding solemn dances worshipping gods
of past fortune as the world is left behind

Dance o' merry mercury..inspiring.

I don't know how it came but I liked

Aah the old 'social faux pa' discussion

I had a conversation about the use of swearing recently with my Dad.
I came to the conclusion that swearing is perfectly acceptable as long as it expresses exactly what you mean to say. Appropriate and succinct when a longer, better thought out sentence might detract from the immediacy of a 'swear' word.

My two cents others may not agree...

Arian wrote:Imaginitive and intriguing, if a bit baffling, as your stuff so often is, John.

I agree that 'the wrong side of redemption' sounds good, and maybe that's enough to justify the line's inclusion. I wouldn't argue, if you claimed it was. But god knows what it means. How about, simply, unredeemed? If that's what you had in mind, congrats - I'd call that poetic phrasing and no mistake! And, no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Can I ask a boring question - is it a JohnG policy that you will never write a poem without the word "Fuck" (or similar) in it? Or, at least, to use words like fuck and shit as often as possible? I've no objection if it is, I'm not offended (except, perhaps, in an academic sense). It's just that it sounds, to my ear, so....so...passe, so unreconstructed, so Angry Young Man, so "done". We've been there, got the T-shirt. Today, ways to offend have moved on - Fuck is no longer modern. It's not even post-modern. Or even neo post-modern. It's quite simply old-fashioned. It dates the poem, rather like using archaic elisions, such as "o'er" or "heav'n", or the grammical inversions so common before poetry's "modern" phase.

It can be done in contemporary poetry, of course, most famously as here http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm

But - personally - I think if you used it more sparingly, it would be more effective.

Cheers
peter

An interesting point of discussion has fuck now descended in cliché or lower? It seems here you might get more mileage from screwed, both the same meanings as fuck gives you with the added bonus of describing a circular movement.

I agree with Peter that "fucked" is often quite a lazy choice, but it can also be effective from a comic point of view, and I like the way it's used here. The contrast it makes with a phrase like "by solar geography" makes me chuckle.

It's often also a lazy (again) shorthand way of saying (or trying to say) "look at me, I'm edgy and urban and I don't take this poetry crap too seriously" ... but I don't think that's John's subtext here.

BenJohnson wrote:An interesting point of discussion has fuck now descended in cliché or lower? It seems here you might get more mileage from screwed, both the same meanings as fuck gives you with the added bonus of describing a circular movement.

Yes, that's more what I was driving at, Ben. It's not a question of whether it's acceptable or not, as O seems to suggest. This is poetry, after all - anything's "acceptable", in the ethical sense. The issue is more to do with whether the word, and others like it - those which are conventionally thought of as socially risque - have any currency in poetry any more. There's nothing wrong in trying to shock, or upset orthodox values, with poetry - some, and I'm among them, would argue that that's one of its purposes. But does the use of “offensive” words offend any more? My view is that they don’t. On the contrary, they’ve been so overused for the purpose that they often (not always) serve merely to make the author seem self-conscious and naive – “look at me, I’m being shocking”. But, sorry, no - you’re not. You’re being dull. Move on. Find other ways to shock! In short, you’re probably right, Ben. It’s fucking cliché.

David wrote:It's often also a lazy (again) shorthand way of saying (or trying to say) "look at me, I'm edgy and urban and I don't take this poetry crap too seriously" ... but I don't think that's John's subtext here.

Looks like our posts crossed. I agree with David (though I'd go further, see above), and I'm also sure it's not J's intent. But readers see effect, not intent. And the effect is laziness.

Ah - I missed the point here didn't I.
Arian - In that case I would agree that such 'offensive' words no longer have any currency. They don't shock me any more. In fact if I'm honest, I didn't read it as a swear word, but I did notice it within the piece. Perhaps because the usual offensive nature still lingers a little but not enough to cause any tangible reaction?

It's the same in art - (Tracy Emin comes to mind).
It's not always about the technical talent but thoughts, history, philosophy, reactions, amongst many other things. Tracy Emin's work is now a cliche and no longer shocks.

So the real question is what shocks next?

offelias wrote:So the real question is what shocks next?

Politeness?

Fuck has its place in poetry, of course it has. But not in this one.
In this short poem the word becomes the poem, and that surely misses the point?

B.

Totally agree that the over use of the word fuck etc turns it into cliché and cheapens its impact...never was really aware of how much I used it...like all things it should be used in moderation and that's what ill take from this.

Definitely not out to shock and besides I'm sure there's a 100 ways to be more outrageous the dropping the odd fuck or bollock into writing.

Don’t think it’s laziness, and had no intentions of it coming across like that. And in regards to the possible perception that I’m somehow saying…

“look at me, I'm edgy and urban and I don't take this poetry crap too seriously”

I would hope that this isn’t the general perception as I’m working hard at improving and developing and I do take this seriously.

But I can appreciate that maybe it’s come across as general laziness but that was never the intentions.

Anywasy. swearing eh, it ain’t big and it ain’t clever!

But I’ll leave the swearing debate to George Carlin [youtube]


But I’ll leave the swearing debate to George Carlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM

John G wrote:And in regards to the possible perception that I’m somehow saying…

“look at me, I'm edgy and urban and I don't take this poetry crap too seriously”

That's what I said you weren't saying. Yes?

David

Hi, Jon.

Short and snappy with a killer ending: I like the last line because it made me associate the heat of the Sun, when too close,
with the fires of Hell.

I don't have a problem with the swearing - it may not be big or clever but (sadly) it's ingrained in me .
I lost count of the times I said FFS during the Germany-England game!

Geoff

David, yep, thats what I was not saying - so I concur .

I must confess I don't feel comfotable with swear words in poems.
But on the other hand, I don't feel offended in certain situations (eg.during the Germany-England game), it must be the context where the words are used or does the gender in poetic voice constitute a difference?

John, if you read our posts, you'll find that neither David nor I were acusing you of being lazy, or of using cliche. We were merely pointing out that, unless you're careful in the way you use words like this, it can seem that way. In fact, both of us found a lot to like in the piece.

Lake - if you read the thread you'll see that the debate isn't about being offended, but something else entirely. Quite the opposite, if anything - that these words simply don't offend.

Cheers
peter

peter,

Sorry, I may not have expressed myself clearly. I understand what you're talking about.
My reply might be off the topic, but to me, whatever swear words used will make me uneasy (as I said before not in all the situations though).

Just a personal preference.

Regards,

Lake

"mathematically positioned
the wrong side of redemption."

Brilliant. Really like this.