Purging Christmas

[danaleekss]

oh how careless of it
daring to string up my tongue
barely weaned and pried open

complicit- yes you!
the torch is burning your hand
it's true

relation, not cause
embarrassed by your fickle pause
Norwegian coffee

stymied winds
and freckled sails
dining on my own entrails

reproach my innocence
didactic bible maker-
never once did you pause

the wretched tetanus fence
has inoculated your limp arm daily,
since submission

now i race under the waves
iron lungs and cut off tongue
i would capitulate in pieces

there is no levity in that
you see,
and that is why you set me free

splitting my atoms would wipe your slate clean
tape it up!
we know what you claim

collisions, collusions, consent
aside
at least i walk away with pride

[danaleekss]

splitting my atoms would wipe your slate clean
tape it up!
we know what you claim

or

splitting my atoms would wipe your slate clean
tape it up!
we know what you mean

I keep changing this back and forth and cannot decide, which is alarming.

[Danté]

I don't personally find either version alarming due to the bland language you have employed.

There is not enough use of high impact, visuals to allude any real trauma to make it even mildly alarming.

BTW welcome to PG might be worth you having a quick scan of the rules in respect of posting more than one poem per day.

Hope you enjoy working here

Danté

[David]

This whole poem is alarming, which is probably why I like it so much. I haven't worked out what it's about yet. Mind you, I gave up on Lost part way through season 2. At the moment I'm just lying back and wallowing in it.

Cheers

David

[Danté]

I just wanted to clarify that I am referring to the passages you are comparing and not the poem as a whole. As the stuff that precedes the close is far more alarming lol.

Danté

[David]

[Tim, thought I'd better just point out that my reply crossed with your first one so that, although it looks as though I'm taking issue with your reply, I'm not!]

David

[danaleekss]

Also alarming is not knowing whether your use of alarming has a negative connotation. Is alarming a euphemism for terrible or is it like having an opposite meaning?

And David, I'm wondering if your careful explanation and apology to Tim is an indication that I'm going to offend a lot of people. For one, I am an American and lack insight into cultural practices of other countries; and two, I have always been expressive to the point of pushy, or at least that is how people tell me they feel - but only with regard to the internet where I can't assess the nonverbal. I have an internet communication disability - does that qualify me for being given a few breaks here and there?

Yeah, I decided the ending pretty much sucks.

Very nice to E-meet both of you.

[Danté]

David, it never entered my mind that you were. It is when a person directly critiques a critique that has been offered as an honest personal opinion, I think is basically bad manners.

We all have as you know our own views and that is just as it should be, none of us are likely to agree with every point raised and a variety of opinions will often exist without having to directly refer to what someone else has said.

sincerely

Tim

[David]

Also alarming is not knowing whether your use of alarming has a negative connotation. Is alarming a euphemism for terrible or is it like having an opposite meaning?

Not negative for me. Not this time.

And David, I'm wondering if your careful explanation and apology to Tim is an indication that I'm going to offend a lot of people.

Nah, I thought it just looked as though I was taking issue with him, rather than just responding to the poem. As to how many people you offend, that's entirely up to you. so far, I'm guessing none.

And nice to E-meet you too.

[danaleekss]

Thanks David, I'm wondering if its me or something else, but I did post something earlier with regard to explaining that I usually write music, and this is a good cross-training exercise in creativity. To offend or not to offend, lol, part of this poem is about my recalcitrant opposition to being censored. I'd rather offer support, but I don't support concepts I believe are damaging and was wondering how rebellious I could be without stepping over the ledge. A lot of what I write has to do with the status quo, religion, and other things most people accept and employ. Also, you could try and teach me about form and proper techniques but that would go against my creative expressions. When I play piano and write, I usually defy traditional methodology as a platform to challenge acceptance of only 'approved' styles in composition. Break the beat, twist it, slice it down the middle and serve it sunny-side up -that is my motto, whatever that means. I suppose you could say I am trying to impose surrealism as most operative in personal growth.

[Ros]

Also, you could try and teach me about form and proper techniques but that would go against my creative expressions.

Ah, but I'd argue that, like music, poetry is to some extent a craft and that learning the techniques and rules aid creative expression, rather than hinder it. If you know how to create certain effects etc, you can manipulate them better. Did you learn music in a traditional manner?

Ros

[danaleekss]

'reality doesn't go away when you stop believing in it''

Realism is in the realm of sane thinking, how do you employ creativity with an immovable position? You would not explore solipsism to better understand realism? I accept your challenge that form can be helpful and at the same time I want to express the value of chaos in creativity (as structure and form move in and out of chaos, or maybe even exist concurrently).


I did study traditionally as a child, and then unlearned it.

[Ros]

Who's being immoveable? I agree chaos can be useful, but I tend to think that to form something that has some coherence meaning for someone else (ie the reader), you need to be able to shape and form that chaos.

[danaleekss]

Who's being immovable? Most people and to clarify that was rhetorical. I just find it fascinating that the human animal doesn't understand his need for ultimate understanding is driving assertions to the unreal. To wit: people would rather believe in a magic demon rather than think for themselves and admit we just. don't. know. People apply sweeping, immovable and insane perceptions to things they can't fully understand, or don't have the energy to process. Creativity spawns as a consequential expression of life's vicissitudes.

And where you and I stand differently is that I don't write at all for the reader, don't take this personal, I am usually diametrically opposed to most of society. I believe art is for your own personal growth, as we would all surely be dead of we thought of other people first when employing our libido. The drive to satisfy the self is most basic - I am thinking about how most are on the narcissistic stage performing to catch a glimpse of who they are - through other people. That's a whole long way around to look inside. What I am referring to is when people fail to pass crucial phases (attachment theory, Melanie Klein), as a child they fail to accurately conceive the self, and it remains tethered to others as it was unaware it was a baby. Some people are internally regulated with clear, defined boundaries - within that, my chaos is for my approval or not. People who weakly fail this stage merely reproduce art as they've witnessed, and expect something of it. Micheal Jackson was beat when he didn't perform, and learned he must perform to be loved. If others don't notice, are you real? Are you good? Are you going to survive?

If I were to give credence to sharing art and being mindful, even entertaining, I would say that prose is understood best by you, with the hope that your creativity will spark others to reach for the same. You can't have one message, and truth is a conceptual disease - things are relative. And really, if you only feel art is valid for those who are trained (by other people, who made it up as well, as there was no bible of art to start with), you are not going to be happy with my message. Essentially I honor this methodology: observe, revel, participate. Don't bother looking around you, that's a fatal distraction.

My best and with no offense intended,

D

[Ros]

No offence, D - probably a bit tired to debate with you properly at the moment! but a coupla points - I take your point that for many people, the urge to satisfy something in themselves leads to creativity, rather than outsiders - but, to be specific, there's not much point in posting somewhere like here if you don't want to do both. Posting on a forum implies you want reaction and will take heed of the views of others, and that you're trying to communicate something to them. Surely your form of creativity needs no communication with others?

To wit: people would rather believe in a magic demon rather than think for themselves and admit we just. don't. know.

Quite agree, but that's where you might use creativity and I might cite the scientific process - hence my sig line.

Plus, if all artistic endeavours are equally valid (ie there's no concept of quality, of some being better than others through training etc), then there is no concept of improvement, and we're all producing equally good stuff? Actually not sure you're saying that...

Ros

[Arian]

you could try and teach me about form and proper techniques but that would go against my creative expressions.

So, just out of interest, what are you hoping to get from the forum? If your "creative expressions" subjugate, even negate, everything else, what can you learn from us? What, indeed, can you learn from anyone? With such a disdain for the formalism of the genre (poetry), why bother seeking a view on your implementation of it (for that's what you'll get here)? Please don't think I mean this unkindly - it's just that, if I'm going to read and crit your stuff, it will be with half an eye on form and technique (as it will be with many here), and I don't want to bother, if I'm wasting my time. Which, if you're going to claim they're irrelevant, I will be.



Cheers
peter

[Arian]

Apoogies - my post seemed to cross with Ros'. She seems to be saying essentially the same thing. Didn't mean to repeat her point.

[danaleekss]

I might have to say this in a few ways to help you understand:

-Yes I do want a reaction, of course

-I come here to participate in observe, revel, create- your art and love for your art and what that means to you inspires me to do the same! and that feels fabulous! I perform so others can enjoy but my first priority is to serve the growth for myself and release my own toxic energies. sublimation is a higher defense, I have a mood disorder, I never feel better than when I write.

-You can't disagree with something that is solely subjective. I went around about this with my dad who is a therapist (which is funny) -- he tried to argue why I talk to my therapist about larger issues of the world, claiming it 'doesn't matter' - well to me it matters, you can try and invalidate that, and it will be no more than a personal attack to tell others what is important and how they should think, feel, behave and create (when they are not behaving in a ways that might gravely hurt others, obviously).

-I wouldn't advise debating when you are tired, and I certainly wouldn't feel offended if you blew off my post to take care of yourself. I'm not debating here, I'm sharing my thoughts and perceptions of the moment and I hope you don't feel you must employ your defenses. I'm very gracious to others' perceptions.

-Regarding scientific process, I do like your quote. I generally agree with all things that have evidence based methodology and do observe discipline and training. I was trying to use that to help me communicate how I understand the world and how important it is to me to never stay in one place, or ever proclaim I have the right perceptions - they are simply my perceptions.

-I do not believe in the concepts of good and bad, rather, I use better, best, more reasonable, healthier, etc. Good and bad are dialectical extremes and are not truth, like I said, relativity. To a polar bear, even a human baby is bad (or evil) because the baby will suck off the Earths resources like a leech until the whole living arc is dead. What's good is always what's good for you and so forth. Yes, we are all producing good stuff, if you will. My daughters early photography brings me to tears because it was who she was and where she was then! Her kindergarten stick people may be the greatest work of art, in that vein. Always the journey, and never the finish; that's a set up to be sure. There are a lot of artists with different abilities, in fact we are all artists with different abilities - I feel there is great beauty in every genuine expression. I do want to work on how I express myself, but this is more about how I want to live my life- around people who endeavor creativity. Improvement is only relevant if something is deficient, expression isn't deficient, just under-expressed. I can improve my golf swing, but not on the energy that makes me excel at it. I would not consider being here for improvement, rather, again, to share in the process of creative expressions, meet some lovely people, and reflect.

-I would also advise to you, Peter, to avoid critiquing my poetry if it makes you feel like you're wasting your time. This is not what I want, it is quite the opposite. I have no disdain, where did you read that? I merely feel that too much instruction becomes didactic which will impair my interest. It's a personal understanding of who I am and how I operate. I did foresee that issue which is why I broached it.

-Again, I am not here to learn but to experience the joy of poetry. My art is relevant now, in this state, as it will be relevant down the line. I read my earlier poems, even as a child, and quickly remember who I was then - it is a healing moment. And yes, I am here to heal myself. This poem by the spiritualist Marianne Williamson is a lovely representation of how I like to look at this:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

-D

[danaleekss]

I wrote all that and thought it could have been summed up by what my mother says about me, "let her do it her way, it keeps her occupied and content."

I am anti-establishment to a fault. As a nurse I am unhappy with our corrupt healthcare delivery model which basically allows people to become very ill, not teach them ways to stay in good health, and then reap in billions when their health fails. So I started my own independent consulting and take payments based on what people can pay and how much energy I use to help them. It's grossly anti-American, haha, to treat people fairly and disregard the narcissistic tendencies in this culture. It makes the greedy people feel self conscious and they attack, wickedly. I tend to rail against neurotically changing oneself, conformity, when it goes too far. My point is if I feel pushed to perform to a standard I don't feel passionate about I'm going fail. And again I'm tangential - I would never say I don't care about how you view me, I just won't let your view of me interfere with the positive things I feel about myself. Please share your comments, I would love to get to know you even if you think I fail miserably at prose, lol.

Regards,
D

[danaleekss]

Yes! I love how my thoughts continue to evolve. Just cleaning up a bit and in between thinking the words and expressions that I've read today pop up from time to time, even prompting my own thoughts in a similar vein of creativity. I really wasn't trying to knock down what anyone feels is important, it's more about me and how I feel about the world because when I am stressed these thoughts flesh out and cut like the subtle waters of a canyon (reinforcing pathways). When I write music, I have my own music in my head, and continue to write songs in my head - and I have a good understanding of how to translate the sounds into actual composition. Otherwise, I have this bizarre 'radio in the head' hallucination (a common thing, actually)-- even when I sleep! If I wake up for any reason there will be Sonny & Cher, the Beach Boys, or other catchy tunes that have been over played. It is enough to cause madness, I tell you.

I guess I am actually raising the white flag right off the bat so I can still reap the value of being around this many talented, creative people along with the understanding I have a child with bipolar, constant chaos, crises and things one can just not imagine tolerating unless you've been through it. I have no consistent energy or availability. I try and focus on one creative endeavor mostly, which would be music, and even that I am sad to say I cannot devote much time to it. The economy is terrible, although MN, which is where I'm from, is decent - I am supporting 3 other people, 2 of which could work but cannot find employment. Stressful, even debilitating. It's been ten years and 8 of which my life partner has been unemployed (not the same person). You know what, I'm tired. And I do this thing where I neurotically over process the stressful things I can't change and I have been off work for a month because of collapsing under the pressure, to the point of not being able to eat and suicidal thinking (which is part of the illness, not what I want). It's not polite to be too telling, I know, but this summer I was on strike (am on the verge of homelessness due to extreme shifts in income as I use all my resources, sick time, due to my family's health issues)- also my boyfriend's unemployment ran out (a mathematician with a degree from a well established college, and no opportunities even at a coffee house!) The last straw was the teenager being a victim of a crime and then I simply fainted underneath it all. If my words are alarming, this is why -I just need to express these things. It is indeed healing and you all are part of that as the absolutely most helpful action when someone has been wounded is listening, validating and allowing the person to be heard; presence - community. If that doesn't sit well with you please let me know so I can avoid offending anyone. I could post on a less mature forum but I just cannot stop my appreciation of aesthetics. The more creative and expressive, the more potent of an elixir it is for me. It's also satisfying to hear your thoughts, get to know you personally, and gain some insights while I relate to you.

When I am older and more free, this will be easier for me, as I am 38 to be, now do you see? Hope you all have a lovely Monday!

-D

[danaleekss]

My goodness don't read all of this. I've been laid up in bed for two days and I am quite certain I could use some exercises in being concise, if anything.

[Suzanne]

Dana, (can we call you dana? )

I would like to heartily welcome you to Pg. While I don't agree with all of your ideas, I've enjoyed your enthusiasm as you said them.

Your poem? Well, I will be back to read all you wrote after work, but I send a warm welcome to you.

Warmly,
Suzanne- born in a dairy state

[Suzanne]

Oh, one more thing from someone who was 39 for a year....

Don't wait for age to make anything easier, lol. It is a hilarious idea.

[Ros]

That's ok, Dana. We are primarily a workshop where people come to learn, but if you contribute what you get out of others' work, and we do the same for you, that should be fine.

-You can't disagree with something that is solely subjective.
-D

Well, I'd state that it's not purely subjective, that there are methods of expression generally agreed to be more effective than others. So we try to show that, rather than just state that someone's work is wonderful as is.

[Suzanne]

Hello Dana,

Unfortunately, your poem is completely lost behind everything else you have just said. So, I am going to reply not to the poem but what followed from your bedside ramble.

I have read it and in your posts it is clear that you have thought about these opinions deeply over a long period of time. Everyone of us believe our opinions are correct, we hold our opinions because we see them as right.

We do not hold opinions that we believe to be false, that would be silly.

You have expressed your opinions and ideas with enthusiasm and as a reader, I can see that you will be very interesting to have around here. You have the opportunity to bring something dynamic. Your language skill, while you acknowledge it as being seen as difficult, is clearly also a strong point in your character.

Now, again, I welcome you to PG. But I will tell you straight: You must come willing to learn or it will not go well for you. I believe you said you are not here to learn. Ouch, that is a bad, bad beginning. And if you really believe that, there is no need to go further.

Interacting alone will breed frustration on everyone's part.

You have much to say, we can see that. You and Ros have already had quite an interesting bit of banter which benefits us all. I can see that you, Dana, have the possibility to challenge some members to rethink some positions therefore become stronger in them OR change them into something else.

But it will not come by any other way but by proving (through your writing) that you believe in what you are talking about, can stand firmly on what it is you believe and can participate within the rules of the Board.



The only way you will share what you know with us is by minimum two crits per each poem posted. One poem a day. One day at a time.


Your poem is interesting but I am not sure it had the impact that you wish it would, that is why you came to a "workshop". Purging Christmas is one step towards sharing the experience of being in a community of poets interested in sharing their art. You may be talented beyond compare but if it is something you want to share here, and I hope you do, (I really hope you do) then it would be wise to

take a deep breath, take a step back and assume you are welcome.


If you want deep discussion as you rambled about in this thread, it is best to put it in the Poetry Discussion section of the board. Not everyone will read this in the Beginner's section. You are getting only a few readers and Beginners teaching Beginners tends to get confusing.

So again, I say welcome. I want to encourage you to have the courage to stay. You will not find it easy.

But, you have much to learn from this group of people if you are really interested in expanding your views of what written art, poetry, is and is not. The only tip as one American female to another that I would like to tell you concerning cultural "etiquette" is: Listen more than you speak.

If you really want to experience something different from your norm. Have the courage to stay and play the game by the rules.

I hope you do.

Warmly,
Suzanne