Poetry Forum

More detailed criticism would also be very appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is a long distance fall,
this is an absence of thought,
elusive resuscitation and compassion thereof.
The cry of a wounded lion
and the call from an agitated woman
(she looked like a sister).
She dragged the children through the disfigured pastures
singing the serpentine song of salvation
while beseeching the dead sands.
They walk in rags as a marred generation;
the purgatorial flesh or a manner of excursion
through the land of grace
beneath the placid earth.
As I looked at her I saw forgetfulness approaching-
staring into blank space, and spoke:
“This is the wilderness of stagnancy,
I am wounded by fear.
I have dreamt of this before
I have dealt with the consequences;
I will use small words, I will shed my lips.”
Her voice began to resonate:
“My friend, the river has already dried for me;
the household is raging
and my desires remain still.
I eat with lepers, and gather the crumbs for the children
spawned from my shortcomings; they serve no purpose.
I pray for God to have mercy on us
I, who am here- what I perceive
no one will make me rearrange;
no one will save me.
The spirit of hindrance
I barricade it with iniquity and the presence
of fire. These are the days of miracles and wonders;
ancient of days at last I have found relief.”
I was perplexed by what I was hearing;
she was exasperated by the oppression
with a face that needed healing,
with a mind that was vulnerable.
I said to her, “It will continue no longer;
you shall destroy the stronghold.”
She laughed, “Don’t talk to me falsely,
I am no longer among the pastor’s flock,
I have already drank the poison- my faith is gone.
Don’t talk to me falsely about the land of the living
and of the dead; I remain homeless.
Agents of nakedness and poverty
you are no longer my masters;
your instruments are disembarked.

“My son, I was told to get up early
to appease the morning voice,
I have pronounced my will
to excavate my sins
and crucify it on a promontory.
The sword of the blood
suffers violence and violence
took it by force!”
I asked, “What does this all mean?”
“My body has no shelter,
the war and soul are one;
dig two graves.
Doors and ladders laid the foundation
not in movement.”
She exhaled, “No, I do not know where I am going.
The wings of regret and of joy; there’s no exit
only confusion in the cold distance,
a voice I must follow.
The devil has wiped out my family;
what has the world come to?”
Her tears stretched across the tombs
“I AM NOT AFRAID TO DIE!”
She sang, “The Lord is my portion in the land of the living
on the mountain, in the valley
on the land and in the sea.”
She took my hand: “This is no longer a prayer
this is a battle cry. I am telling you, child
we have nothing left------”
that’s enough, I said “THAT’S ENOUGH
I can’t stand for this!
Self is not my concern,
which is more,
I will fight for you.”







“Blessed be the LORD my rock, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.”

Hi, Mulbery.

Well, quite a read. And reading hard work for me right now .

My first thought is that you've spent quite some time on this, and have been very deliberate in your word choice.

Beyond the religious overtones, I'm afraid a get a bit lost when looking for a coherent meaning here.

As an example:

The spirit of hindrance
I barricade it with iniquity and the presence
of fire

However, there are some fantastic lines, like the opener, and

As I looked at her I saw forgetfulness approaching

.

I also like the change of voice you use in the quoted parts. The contrast works well.

I hope one of our better critters from Exp takes a look at this and gives you the more detailled crit you're looking for.

I'll have another stab later, and try to come up with more for you. I'd hate to see this go un-noticed, as I think your effort deserves attention.

Got any nice short ones that all we beginners can have a stab at?

All the best.

- Neil

Mulbery, I think you're aiming at epic narrative poetry, with a religious theme and rather revelatory, slightly archaic language. I should warn you that this isn't the sort of poetry that we're used to here, and we may not be able to give you a lot of assistance! I guess it's not what we generally think of as contemporary poetry. However, within its own remit, I'll have a bash:

you have a mixture of interesting phrases:

I saw forgetfulness approaching-

I will use small words, I will shed my lips.

and phrases that have almost become cliches, and so have lost their individual impact:

These are the days of miracles and wonders

ancient of days.

If your purpose is to tell a story, either I'm the wrong audience (not having the background to recognise the characters) or you need to describe them further. I'm not getting any real indication of who 'she' or the narrator are.

They walk in rags as a marred generation; - who are they?

I think you need to consider who the poem is aimed at, and exactly what you're trying to achieve - tell a story? hint at revelations to come?

Ros

Ros wrote:Mulbery, I think you're aiming at epic narrative poetry, with a religious theme and rather revelatory, slightly archaic language. I should warn you that this isn't the sort of poetry that we're used to here, and we may not be able to give you a lot of assistance! I guess it's not what we generally think of as contemporary poetry. However, within its own remit, I'll have a bash:

you have a mixture of interesting phrases:

I saw forgetfulness approaching-

I will use small words, I will shed my lips.

and phrases that have almost become cliches, and so have lost their individual impact:

These are the days of miracles and wonders

ancient of days.

If your purpose is to tell a story, either I'm the wrong audience (not having the background to recognise the characters) or you need to describe them further. I'm not getting any real indication of who 'she' or the narrator are.

They walk in rags as a marred generation; - who are they?

I think you need to consider who the poem is aimed at, and exactly what you're trying to achieve - tell a story? hint at revelations to come?

Ros

I strongly disagree with nearly all of your remarks, it is obvious but at the same time it transcends that- if you actually read it properly with your undivided attention. None of the phrases are cliche because of how they are constructed. But I do admit, a little background is needed.

As far as your final remark goes, it is actually doing both.

Nar, I thank you very, very, very, very much for your efforts! If you need me to explain anything just post here or PM me.

Hello Mulbery,

I have read this a few times. I am not sure what to think. You have some nice lines in there, that is for sure. And I agree with Neil's observation that you have spent time on choosing your words.

I am also a Beginner and so am unsure about how to find a way to be of assistance, BUT I would like to be helpful.

Would it be possible for you to give a sentence or two about what the Narrative is about? This of course, assumes that it has a clear meaning to you, a story that you want to tell rather than wanting the reader to get an emotional response to something and make their own conclusions.

If Ros was incorrect in her views, in what way were they incorrect? If you shared that, it would be helpful.

Welcome you to Pg. I would like to know what kind of feedback is the most encouraging for you.

Warmly,
Suzanne

I'm obviously not the audience you're aiming at then, Mulbery. The correct etiquette if you don't agree with a crit, by the way, is to thank the critter for their time and ignore their comments. If you openly want to disagree, then, as Suzanne suggests, you need to explain why.

Ros

Mulbery wrote:I strongly disagree with nearly all of your remarks, it is obvious but at the same time it transcends that- if you actually read it properly with your undivided attention. None of the phrases are cliche because of how they are constructed. But I do admit, a little background is needed.
As far as your final remark goes, it is actually doing both.

Let me get this straight.

You're telling us that the poem is very good, right? OK, fair enough. I can live with that, though the piece doesn't chime with anything I recognise as commendable in poetry. Especially contemporary poetry. Still, we all have our views. What I don't understand is, if you're so sure that your work is beyond fair-minded, if arguable, criticism, why are you posting here? In particular, why are you posting in Beginners which (do correct me if I've got the logic wrong) would imply that you're a beginner. And, ipso facto, that you're looking for input from more experienced people (such as, just for example, Ros). I don't get it. Explain it to me, please, in words of one syllable if you can, as I'm a bear of very little brain.

By the way, I do think your work has some strengths, though far outweighed by its weaknesses. But you'll want to hear neither what I think, nor why I think it, because you already know how good your work is.

I can't speak for Ros, but I suspect there's no real point in either of us (indeed, anyone, unless they're prepared to give rave reviews) reading your stuff in future, as we're wasting our time forming a view.

I apologise if my comments seem a little acrid, but sensible critting takes time. And there's no point in our spending it if all you're looking for is (as you seem to be) praise for your brilliance.

All the best
peter

To completely tell you what the narration is about I would need to go through it with you, line by line. But, the poem is about a personal experience, and the poem is describing that, but in a, I don't like using this word- but, in a spiritual sense, if you will. I am sorry if the poem isn't accessible or even considered contemporary (by your standards.) My idea or 'contemporary' is clearly different (I prefer modernism, personally.)

Ros, you said that you didn't know who 'she' is- but I didn't see the need for the 'she' to be named, her presence is embodied in the poem.
What I am trying to achieve with the poem is irrelevant, I don't see why it would add or take away anything- make what you will of it as it is, and if you do feel that you are of the wrong audience then fair enough. I agree that not everyone will understand or will be able to connect with it. Your critique seemed very opinionated. But don't take it the wrong way, I do appreciate your efforts nonetheless.

Suzanne- The narrative is about being controlled mental manipulation, especially schizophrenia and its constituent symptoms. The 'she' in the poem very much knows that her illness is due to bewitchment, a generational cure, but she almost refuses to accept it (she chooses rather to take drugs to suppress it.) It is also revealed that her family members (except her and her children) were killed- and thus she has no one to take care of her.
I hope this aids as a good starting point (if not, I could add more details about the poem, and maybe go through ti with you line by line.) Thank you very much for your comment.

Arian- I would love to know what you feel the 'weaknesses' are in the poem as well as the 'strengths'. Judging by your comment I don't feel you see much in this poem- you most likely see it as random and inconsequential. Well... fair enough then. BTW, I am not sure what section I am supposed to be posting in- Ros seems to see me as a beginner, apparently.
I am not looking for 'praise', I am, just like everyone here, trying to improve as well as share experiences with people. If you think otherwise, then fine I guess. Thank you for reading nonetheless.

Hey, Mulbery.

What I am trying to achieve with the poem is irrelevant

No, it's certainly not, if you want it to be read and critiqued.

If you post it on a poetry forum, you are trying to achieve something.

Please, tell us what that 'something' is. I've spent time on your piece, and am still willing to hear what it is you want from your audience (and you have a very good one here IMHO).

If you want crit, expect CRIT or crit or crit or crit.

If you want to evangelise or soul-spew, then sorry, but I (for one) won't listen.

I am, just like everyone here, trying to improve as well as share experiences with people

Yes, please do that. You have a voice for language, so please, let it connect with (at least) my ear.

Personal views/opinions/feelings/beliefs are so hard to write. That's why love-poetry turns to slushy doggerel so quickly.

As I said before: I'd like to read your shorties; something about shit weather, or supermarket queues, or something more 'universal'. What you have is cleverly-crafted and profound, but perhaps only to you.

Have you seen the Food Poetry competition here? Go on.... tell us about your indulgences.

Trying,

- Neil

nar wrote:Hey, Mulbery.

What I am trying to achieve with the poem is irrelevant

No, it's certainly not, if you want it to be read and critiqued.

If you post it on a poetry forum, you are trying to achieve something.

Please, tell us what that 'something' is. I've spent time on your piece, and am still willing to hear what it is you want from your audience (and you have a very good one here IMHO).

If you want crit, expect CRIT or crit or crit or crit.

If you want to evangelise or soul-spew, then sorry, but I (for one) won't listen.

I am, just like everyone here, trying to improve as well as share experiences with people

Yes, please do that. You have a voice for language, so please, let it connect with (at least) my ear.

Personal views/opinions/feelings/beliefs are so hard to write. That's why love-poetry turns to slushy doggerel so quickly.

As I said before: I'd like to read your shorties; something about shit weather, or supermarket queues, or something more 'universal'. What you have is cleverly-crafted and profound, but perhaps only to you.

Have you seen the Food Poetry competition here? Go on.... tell us about your indulgences.

Trying,

- Neil

I am not evangelising at all, the poem is spiritual, yes, but that's about it. But because the poem is categorised as being 'overtly religious'- many people will easily turn away from it, I feel (but I could be wrong.) I just want to connect with people something that I see as an unusual experience (not the 'shizophrenia', but what caused it) with people. And for those who are going through the same thing the person I am describing is, or know of someone who is, basically I am trying to tell them that they aren't alone.

I am sorry that the poem wasn't very penetrable for you. I will post a shorter poem next time, hopefully something that is indeed a bit more 'universal'.
Again, thank you for reading.

Good stuff, Mulbery.

I just want to connect with people ...<snip>... (sic: who are going through) an unusual experience (not the 'shizophrenia', but what caused it) with people. And for those who are going through the same thing the person I am describing is, or know of someone who is, basically I am trying to tell them that they aren't alone.

Now the context is clear to me, so thank you . And the poem makes more sense (partlially), to someone (me) who is not suffering from shizophrenia.

But... I'm sorry to say: I'm not sure the meaning of your poem will resonate with any shizophrenic or their immediates. How do you universalise such a complex condition while employing religious overtones? Sorry, but I just don't see it ever working.

I can't connect with the specific unusual experience of which you speak, but I can relate to dealing with significant mental-health issues in my immediate family.

Sadly, your poem doesn't resonate. Now you've had to explain it, I'm just left with my own feelings, and no empathy from your poem.

The weather? Food?

- Neil

Mulbery,

I have visited this thread many times today and pondered how to respond. I was hoping to hear from you concerning Neil's comments. Everything I want to say is not from the Board but from just me, one member. It is my opinion.

I tried going over your poem to help you cut it back a bit to give it some tighter movement between ideas but it is just an overwhelming amount of words.

My hope is that you are not discouraged that it was not received as you would have wished but that you can come back and talk about why it was difficult to critique in detail as you asked.

The difference between posting in the Beginner's or the Experienced ( especially for people just arriving) is that posting in the Beginner's gives you some time to figure out how the Board works and therefore help you use it further your goals before you get heavy details crits in which are expected to give heed to and edit your poem appropriately.

No one is above starting in the Beginners, as far as I am concerned. You lose nothing and gain orientation. If the work is of good quality it will be noticed and the transition will be natural. There is no failure in posting first poems in the Beginner's.

There are a few things that I feel comfortable assuming are true about you

1. you spent a lot of time thinking about and then writing Voices.
2. you wanted to share it with other writers for feedback on the style and such
3. you enthusiastically posted your first poem in Experienced which shows you some confidence in your ideas or potential to communicate.
4. you pre-empted this poem with the specific request of detailed crits. showing your willingness to listen

And you were given crits but the have caused some confusion.

What has gotten in the way (somewhat) is the that you are not familiar with how the Board is run and who we are. All of these things have gotten tangled up with the large/big content of your poem.

Let's try to sort it out.

1. For you, now, posting in the Beginner's is a great idea as you can get yourself orientated and get to know which people you feel are the most helpful to you.

2. Posting shorter pieces that show us who you are only makes sense if you want to work together with a group of us. If you post large bodies, they will get missed because we all have limited time and we do not know you.

There is NO ONE, none of us who would go through a poem line by line with another member for the sole purpose of gaining meaning to the message.
And certainly would not with someone we don't know.

As far I believe, none of us would pick up a poem or a book of poetry that needed the poet whispering in our ear to gain meaning.
Seldom does a good poem need to be explained at all, and "good" poems are the goal.

3. We, the members, want to be helpful and encouraging but not at the expense of what the essence of poetry is.
What it is can be debated but we are a serious working workshop dedicated to holding what is good about tradition as well as bending to some new ideas. We are diverse in opinion on most aspects but we respect one another's ideas. We are interesting in helping posters improve.

You may have gotten off on the wrong foot simply because you did not realize what we are and are not. We do not share just to share ( well, not often anyways) We share to improve our writing, communicating skills.

I would like you to stick around and contribute as you have strong ideas that rub hard against some of us. So what. We challenge one another and become stronger in our ideals.

I don't know what you should do next but I can recommend the same as Neil, let us get to know you and your writing.

It is free and interesting education.
You will easily find other Board that are easier on you but I don't think you will find another Board as willing to share honestly with the goal of helping the writer gain insight into his or her writing ability.

Welcome again. Stick around.

Warmly,
Suzanne

Suzanne, thank you for shedding some light on how things work around here. I tried to read all of the rules before posting any of my poems in order to conform with standards and regulation here. I too would like to improve but it seems that most people do not understand the poem, but I don't think it is the fault of the poem or the readers. I have showed some people this poem who seemed to get most of it without any explanation at all, so I guess the real weakness of the poem is that it has it's own type of audience. But, like mentioned earlier, I will try to post a new piece that is more universal to the general readers. Your feedback has made me to want to stick around, as I was considering leaving just a few hours ago.

Also, I would like to apologise for creating a big issue about posting in the Beginner's section. Originally I was put here by Ros because he seemed to think that 'Foundation' wasn't "up to standards" for it to be posted in the experienced- and not simply because it is considered a standard for all new members to start off in the Beginner's. If that was the case, I wouldn't mind in the slightest. But the way in which the poem was seemingly 'demoted' here made me feel that the poem wasn't good enough. I don't mind posting in the beginner's though, the reason why I did at first because I thought that the beginner's section was only for those who literally just got into writing poetry, and I have been writing for a few years now.

Anyway, I am digressing. Thank you for your efforts and thank you for reading

Just to confirm, all members have the freedom to post on either the Experienced or Beginners' boards. However, work on the Exp board may be subjected to harsher criticism and the site moderators retain the right to move work from one board to the other.

B.

Mulbery,
It is nice you replied and decided to stick around. I look forward to your next poem.

B. has stated the facts of where you (or me, or anyone ) can post very clearly.

Anyone can post anywhere.

Sometimes invitations have been given, sometimes not. But no actual Moderator invitation is needed.

However, it is my suggestion that you begin in the Beginner's until you are more familiar with the general tone of the board and what to expect if you ask for a crit in the Experienced section. This is just my opinion.

Come crit and post.
Suzanne

I believe the poem has its strength, but badly in need to be trimmed down. At places I have felt the words are getting redundant. This does not mean that its a bad poem by any standard. I look forward to your next one. Keep the ink flowing. Smiles.