Poetry Forum

Road Under Repair - Please Detour

Hey John,

"Heel tap, toe tap, tapping of feet,"

Why not just "Tapping of feet"?

I could understand if it was an ode to the death of a tap dancer?

Probably a meter/feet/rhyme thing?

I see the poem not as a poem but a series of forced words...See what I'm saying? The message, the crux, the heart is lost to rhyme? Did you or did you not write a line and think what could rhyme with that?

TS

Hi John,

I have the feeling that you think rhyme all day in your head, that these sentence ideas rattle through your brain as you drive or do the commute.
This one seems to have an-underlying negative message about big brother government. Politics seem to be an interest of yours.
I'm also noting an American thing going on with you, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Your poems are quite confusing to me, I must admit. I understand the words but the message seems to get lost in the verbiage.
They are a lot of words but they are not clearly saying anything.

It makes it hard to reply as I am not sure how to be helpful in critiques if I am unsure where you are heading.
Like what does the title have to do with the poem? What are the transitional nuances that tie the sections together?

Suzanne

Hi John,

Good to see I'm not the only one slightly confused (thanks Suzanne!)

What I see is the black blues/jazz music sub-culture in America pre Mr.X. After serving for the country in war (technically as equals), they return to the same oppression/racism as before (KKK). Then I think we see the emergence of more racial equality through the generation that follow, until the Supremacists' hatred dies out...

However, the last 2 S do confuse me as to who the poet is talking about. I can read the end of racism, with a supremacist being electrocuted for racial crimes... but I can also read somehow the opposite... the last line certainly confuses me as to why it could happen to anyone, as I'm not sure what the subject actually is.

Not sure how close are far I am with any of that...

Tom

Thanks TS, Suzanne,Tom.

First don't look too deep; part of me says 'say it as it is' because eventually cryptic becomes unintelligible. As far as standing for anything, Suzanne, I try to be truly eclectic.

Second, most ultra 'modern' seem to be just one moment in time, one thought and rarely moves into a story.

In this story, (folk song):

Here, we are looking at teenagers having fun, disco, blues, jazz. Toe tap, heel tap tries to suggest how it starts, when you first get interested in the 'Scene' , then you start tapping your feet and that leads to uninhibited dance floor action.....

Then courtship. Rudely interrupted by the US Draft and off to war.

Regular guys get changed by war and have difficulty adjusting afterwards, especially when they meet perceived injustices. Makes them wonder what they fought for.

Then family life, and community life and all the bits that go with that - but he makes a stand for an extreme view. Probably can't take the dichotomy of integration/segregation, black and white rubbing shoulders etc.

Then he kills in pursuit of his ideology.

Then he is deserted by kith, kin and what he thought he stood for.

Then he goes to the electric chair; both his wife and the Motherland (the she) watch his demise - the national grid registers amp demand, shrugs and life moves on.

Premature death this way, or another; and death anyway whatever the route is what we have in store. Good route or bad route, we all get there.




J.

John,

The fact that you completely enjoy yourself in your writing is obvious, I can see writing is something that brings you pleasure. I share that passion for writing.

However, the story that you just told which this poem is about, does not come through to your readers. The posted poem is like reading every fifth word of a prose piece and trying to find meaning to the whole.

If this style is a new form of poetry that I am unaware of, I can see it is way over my head. And I am not your intended audience. My crits of your work, I'm afraid would bore you silly as I would ask you to make sense.

Thanks for this learning experience.
Suzanne

Suzanne wrote:John,

......If this style is a new form of poetry that I am unaware of, I can see it is way over my head........ Suzanne

No Suzanne, it's not a new form and it is not 'over your head' - it's about knee level; You and David and Ros and Arian are in the style of the new form. I try to fit a story to a style. I don't want to fit all into one style - That's like being on the Golf Course and having one swing for all occasions. Eventually it doesn't work.

I want to understand all styles, work in all styles; Life is about learning.



J.

John,

I think learning is a great activity, humbling as it is.

Tell me, because I would like to understand, when you have that big story in your head
How do you decide which parts to include and which to cut. For example a us draft is in your explanation, but not the poem. How do you expect the reader to know those missing parts?

Have you read much poetry? Does you style have something in common with one of your favorite poets?

How serious are you about improving? For some, they just want a place to express themselves. For others they want academic rules to guide.

Do you just like to share or is editing to refine part of the process too?

These things I wonder as I read your work.

Suzanne

Hi Suzanne,

I will reflect on your questions and reply as fully as I can.

In the meantime, I thought I covered the Draft in S3 lines 2 & 3



J.

Okay, why is it US draft. Because you mentioned the KKK? ok, I suppose but don't get hung up on that.

How about the electric chair? How about most of the details you provided. Where is the disillusionment? Where is the murder?
What could happen to anyone? we could be in the electric chair?

I will say it again, the pleasure you take in the words you write is evident. I can see that. The joy of writing is clear, you ooze fun with words but
as this is a workshop and the readers are interested in helping you improve, it is of interest to know what ways you are interested in improving and how we can be of service.

Suzanne

OK Suzanne - You have asked a lot of questions.

The issue is to try to write current themes, stories, things that are interesting or controversial - things that evoke emotion or force the reader to think or take them out of their comfort zone. As the strap line of a group says "this is not a love in".

Having put my poem together, I want to test this out in the Workshop. If readers cannot understand, or if readers say too juvenile and too literal; or lacking style, technical skill etc, then I know I need to change something. Several times I have wanted to test out certain aspects so have written that into a poem to wait for reaction. As well as reading (for example Ros referred me to a book); is not testing the water part of the learning process?

I came here to understand the poetic territory of 'Contemporary': What styles, methods are in or out of favour. For example songs have been written for millenia. They are so current - every one has CDs - look at the percentage 'chat' in the Songs Forum relative to the Poetry Forum - and yet if a song was posted in the poetry section how would it be received?

A big problem with posting poems is the feedback, it is not always consistent. Sometimes I know from what people say that they have not understood the words.

That means comprehension; are my critics comprehending what I am saying? I write a simple (literal) poem and it is too simple. I adjust and write a cryptic poem and it is too cryptic. So I have to adjust again. I write a song and it is wrong; I write prose poetry and there is no comment - is that because it is not prose poetry, or because it is bad or because people just aren't interested in prose poetry? How do I know?

One of the best crits I have had is from Ros because she has advice on what to do or where to go next.

So the bottom line answer to your question is that criticism should come with reasons and remedies; and through time of same place, same people you shouldn't write to get good crits.

J.

Song lyrics aren't necessarily poetry - they tend to lean too heavily on repetition, cliched metaphors, the expression of generalised emotion (she loved me; now she doesn't, etc). They need the music to become something more. So, no, generally song lyrics don't go down so well, unless you expressly say that's what you're attempting. It's a different technique, and not one we specialise in here.

The impression I get is that you're thrashing around, lurching from one aspect of poetry to the next, trying to get a fix on what works, a bit like poetry by numbers. It really doesn't work like that. My best advice, if you're serious, is to get hold of a modern anthology and read until you find someone you like. Then look at more of their work, and see what they do and how they do it. If you want a mainstream view, read the Forward Book of Poetry 2011.

Plus I'd suggest - work with formal metre if you want - but skip the rhyming for now. It tends to force you to choose words which aren't the best for what you're trying to say.

Ros

Thank you Ros,

I'll do what you say.

(i) I'll get an Anthology
(ii) I've just signed up for online tuition



J.

On-line tuition from whom?

The Poetry School;

http://www.poetryschool.com/index.php

J.

OK! Perhaps you'll let us know what you think of it. I'd be interested to know what sort of things they suggest. Bet they make you read plenty, though

Ros

Very Exciting, John!
I'd love to hear how it works out. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Suzanne

Hi Ros, Suzanne,

I'll certainly let you know how it goes. And hopefully my contributions should improve.
I've already read:
Dylan Thomas - Fern Hill: Don't understand much of it
Emily Dickinson - Because I could not stop for death: Good
Allen Ginsberg - Howl: I really connected to the style, but how it went on, and on, and on..... Like Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy which I have now finished.
Ted Hughes - Full Moon and Little Frieda: in context I couldn't understand the line "A dark river of blood, many boulders. I wonder about his personal life though and that makes me look for nuances in his work.



J.

JohnLott wrote:Like Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy which I have now finished.

You have? Good for you! I started it about 30 years ago and I still haven't finished it. I find it's more of a book for dipping into (and, sometimes, falling asleep to) than a good solid read.

JohnLott wrote:Poem closed for repair
Detour in operation

Is this a poem? A sort of neo-postmodern approach to imagistic minimalism? Or self-referential irony, perhaps. Should we be genuflecting to a new poetic paradigm?

Or are you editing a poem? If so, why not just leave it there, and repost when you're done?

Cheers
peter

The convention, John, is to post the new version above the original, so we can compare and all say that in retrospect we liked the first one better.

Sorry Arian,
Thank you Ros,

Not really editing it - on reflection it shouldn't be there and when reposted I'm sure it won't resemble the original.



J.

Hey John,

This thread has dissolved into a general discussion so thought I might just add my tuppence worth. I've also been reading some of your stuff and finding it really hard to get into, it's great you're reading and that course sounds interesting - keep us posted??

My additional comment was about how many poems you post. I just counted up that 7 of the 20 on the board are yours. I personally find it helpful to post and then wait as people crit, this gives me time to take on board their comments and makes me slow down and think more carefully about what i'm writing. You're bombarding a little which makes it a bit off-putting to others (I lose track of which is which), and I'm not sure you're giving yourself time to digest the crits.

Of course, this is just my opinion, as ever, feel free to do with as you wish.

Good luck!

Nicky B

Nicky B wrote:Hey John,


.....I'm not sure you're giving yourself time to digest the crits.....

Good luck!

Nicky B

I agree with you and a new me is gradually emerging.

More comment with the replaced (renamed) poem at the top of this thread.



J.

The re-write is massively different, and I can get the story much more clearly. Although I could put in a nit about forced rhyming still, the overall flow and change of pace negates this somewhat in the new version.

I wish you'd left both versions up though, because you've done some much more adventurous things here, linguistically, and it would have been nice to directly compare more.

all in, nice one mate, quite a drastic re-write I think, brave stuff.

Tom