Poetry Forum

To me,that table was a blazing
Bohemia,though he never noticed : to
him, it was Kristallnacht. Poetry
books took refuge in walls ; crude
thought relied solely on moleskine. I
was Jewish in that seat - my acceptable
items dictated and regimented before
me. Miniature debris and limited
necessities littered that part of the
furniture : a coffee cup,still half
full (despite the depression) , an
ashtray ( plus its own
array of surplus carbon decay), had
been slowly replacing my heart. I
welcomed those monoxides to
RSVP my own demise ; I
wished to taste formaldehyde; only
to feel alive - ! But
instead, he would arrive,to
cut off all my hair, and
gas until my
chair
became
inanimate.

it took me a while to jaywalk over your poem

its temperature, nice write

the mole skins reminds of the torah

a most interesting poem

you need a research grant

Thanks, gavin!
I do hope the research grant comment is not a reference to my dearth of knowledge I don't want to appear arrogant by using themes I clearly don't understand. I have noticed this happening on the experienced boards. If I express a contradiction or misunderstanding within my work I aim to quickly rectify it.
I studied Kristallnacht, and took German speaking to A level standard, though I did not complete my final exam. Iam always very forthright with how much I do and don't know,so any inconsistencies found with my knowledge regards this topic,and how I have relayed it within my poem would be gratefully received that's how we learn.

Cheers,

tf

Hi tf,

This is a tricky one imo. personally I don't think this is a subject you can write about in the first person, it's like war in that respect. It is such an individual and powerful experience that I think any attempt to sympathise from a first person perspective is a fallacy, and no matter how well done will always seem a little glib in my book. So on that front, I don't feel comfortable with, or particularly like, this poem. That's not to say it can't be written about, but I think a more honest third person account.opinion, or a first person account from you looking on would be better.

That said, there is some nice writing and expression here, so I do wish to compliment that. Although I don't quite get your choice of line breaks, the seem a little random.

Tom

Tf, I find I pretty much agree with Tom. There are some very nice lines in there, and it flows well, but the use of terms like Kristallnacht and the like to describe (if I understand correctly) a domestic situation is a mistake, I think. Sylvia Plath did - and was criticised for - a similar sort of thing.

However, I'd be interested to know what you think about the choice of those terms in this context.

Cheers

David

Tf,

What an interesting poem. the line breaks definitely take away from the whole but as far as what David and Tom say, I would love to hear a discussion of this and information on the Plath thing. Take it over to the discussion board. Interesting, yes.

Suzanne

I found this a very confusing poem where I wasn't sure what the poet was trying to convey both in the choice of imagery and grammar.

For example

" ... But
instead, he would arrive,to
cut off all my hair, and
gas until my
chair
became
inanimate."

Which could be read as "gas me" or not as the case may be.

I personally agree that first person poems about Kristallnacht (or Holocaust) or a difficult ground for those not there (although poems about their repercussions through the generations is another debate) and I'm not sure that this does justice to the subject.

Steve

Ah,now,this is what I wanted something we could all sink our teeth into on terms of 'what is going on here?!

Hey Tom! I trust the weekend treats you well,sir. Many thanks as always for time taken to read and offer feedback!
The line breaks suck,dude. Hat off and eaten,too. Revision in progress,thanks man. Any suggestions,out of curiosity?

This is a very touchy subject matter, I will take that right on the chin - don't think for a second that my index finger willed me to leave this within paper confines,but eventually I bullied it towards the submit button I have tried very hard to do it justice, but I fear my strongest theme isn't ringing true ; so,hear me out :
Kristallnacht was used because that evening represents a massive turning point during 'the Rise' ; the coming of dictatorship. The Jewish communities,their faith,their livelihood,destroyed and vindicated.
This was not intended to read like a domestic situation, I was trying to use that as a cushion for a greater issue which doesn't isolate the holocaust but include it - but I fear this is where I fell flat on my face- and that's zenophobia. I used poetry as one of those allusions. I encounter prejudice with both poetry (I know,right?) and faith.
The first person was also meant to be synonymous with being 'part of the furniture', a table and chair with which to write with, my dears, but I think this fell flat,too. Being gassed in the chair - the gas was being verbally slain and interrogated,not allowed space to work,be or contemplate.The cigarettes pertain to a formal,slow,self-inflicted preservation,ie formaldehyde,and the suggestion of other gasses.
The cutting off of hair is a denotation for loss of strength,a biblical allusion as well, though I hope the testament is correct, 1st?? Hope so...maybe I do need that research grant, gav

Plath surely did do this, David as my screen name suggests I am a keen Plathian. This poem wad a kind of private tribute to 'Daddy', (the poem we allude to, those who aren't so familiar). Plath herself also had (stronger) German connections, dad issues, and a strong Plutonian persuasion,as does yours truly.
There's a lot going on here, more than I am conveying well,guys.

Thank you, Suzanne! Oh, darling, the line breaks are so awful,aren't they, ha ha! I don't know what I was thinking! still choking on my hat there lol! Discussion would be cool,uncharted territory for this little fish however...

Oooh I do hope I won't need to edit this - I am on a pda and doing everything in miniature,and it takes HOURS...
Thanks again for your feedback guys, I look forward to hearing back!

Hey, David ... What do you think would become of this one if I re-worked it and chummed the waters of the experienced boards - reckon there'd be a feeding frenzy?!

Best regards as always, guys

tf

Cheers, Steve

Last paragraph - strongly agree, more so than before.

tf

P.s to those unfamiliar with certain British colloquialisms, verb 'to gas' is to talk,gossip,chat incessantly. Ta sorry tò highjack ur reply with that, Steve..

wow tf a little essay there...

Your meanings/justifications/mindmaps etc are all well and good, but I think it reveals this poem is trying too many things...?

All the clever word play and double meaning was lost on me, due to the emotive nature of the subject. Your strongest theme didn't ring through, you are right, and I don't think it ever will, again due to the subject matter. Imho this subject matter should not be approached in this way, but like Steve says, there are other options. It's not a matter of offence or respect, I just think it cheapens the experience to pretend.

All that sounds very heavy and moral-highgroundy, it's not really intended to be so. Like I said, I do like your wordplay.

As to the line breaks... write another poem and I'll comment

Cheers,
Tom

terriblefish wrote: P.s to those unfamiliar with certain British colloquialisms, verb 'to gas' is to talk,gossip,chat incessantly. Ta sorry tò highjack ur reply with that, Steve..

Hm - I was aware of the colloquialism, it just never crossed my mind that it would be an appropriate useage in this context.

Your lengthy reply above is fascinating but I think underlines the weakness of the poem, those themes are not coming through as strongly as they should. Is the subject matter too large for a poem of this length?

Steve

Hi terriblefish,

I agree, the discussion should go towards the forum to winkle out all the idiosyncracies. How can Plath say 'nigger-eye?

I've looked into a 'Blackman's' eye and it don't look like a blackberry! It's not even a similie; and nigger-eyes don't cast dark hooks.

Postmodern goes heavy into allusion; if you allude too obscurely without reference to your Oxford English, the crits pretend to read it literally; or don't read it all. If you write literally they demand allusion.

Definitely a subject for the forum, if only to agree or disagree on being consistent (true to yourself or your (peer group's) art) or how far do they think pretension should go before someone shouts 'Gaddifi'?

And what are you being true to? Reality or Representation?

Discuss:

"Postmodernism ......The arts created hypothetical worlds of their own, protected by abstruse theory."

".... truth in poetry is not truth to the meaning of words — as it is in philosophy — but an artifact of literary devices or tropes."




J.

It's very tempting to explain your poems, I know, but it's something you ought to resist. Let 'em stand or fall etc - you just dig a bigger hole in the end. I liked most of this, some interesting propositions. I thought the ending was very good -

But
instead, he would arrive,to
cut off all my hair, and
gas until my
chair
became
inanimate.

folk are far too precious about what we might write about and the correct perspectives to adopt.
The line breaks need a lot of attention, though. I think the poem sags a bit in the middle, you could easy get rid of the stuff in brackets.
It's xenophobia, by the way.

ray miller wrote: folk are far too precious about what we might write about and the correct perspectives to adopt.

Essentially you are correct, people should be free to write about what they want how they want, I don't have to read it after all!
But, there are some subjects that I think people cannot do any respectful justice to if they have not experienced it for themselves. The more extreme and emotive the experience, the truer I think that is. I think masquerading as someone and talking as if you know personally about something horrendous is an unproductive and belittling fallacy imho.

I guess the bottom line is that I think people should write poetry about things they know, as that produces the most honest and true, and essentially 'good', results.

Tom

TDF wrote:I think masquerading as someone and talking as if you know personally about something horrendous is an unproductive and belittling fallacy imho.

Hello Tom. Doesn't the above proposition render an awful lot null and void?To give just one example, any representation of Christ in art or literature.I take your point about writing about what one knows, authenticity and all that. But there's much to be learnt in writing about what one doesn't know, or hasn't experienced at first hand.

ray miller wrote:

TDF wrote:I think masquerading as someone and talking as if you know personally about something horrendous is an unproductive and belittling fallacy imho.

Hello Tom. Doesn't the above proposition render an awful lot null and void?To give just one example, any representation of Christ in art or literature.I take your point about writing about what one knows, authenticity and all that. But there's much to be learnt in writing about what one doesn't know, or hasn't experienced at first hand.

Hi Ray,
Interesting point you make and I did consider that as I was typing my words. There certainly is a truth in what you say, but I think visual art is different, as the visual is always viewed from the outside, so is the artist's perception of something, which is fine in my book. Also, the religious example is poor... nowhere in the bible for eg does anyone pretend to be christ, instead it is an account of what he did.

Ultimately though, if I was correct perhaps nearly all historical fiction pros would be voided as 'unreal'. But then personally I prefer memoirs to fiction, so perhaps it is just a personal issue/taste thing for me.

Cheers for the discussion, sorry to derail your thread a bit tf.
Tom