Poetry Forum

Posted: **Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:48 pm**

OK - Revision 3 (without the ones I did before posting

)...

Gonna nick Barrie's suggestion of ¨ gild¨

But also wasn't happy with ¨the harpsichord at night,¨ so am considering the following instead:

within this toxic plight

Hit me with your critique stick…….[ HIT ME, HIT Meeeeeeeee…….

The Daffodil (Revised, version 3)

The yellows gone away,
no daffodil in sight,
I don’t know what to say

they used to bloom till May,
gild valleys with delight.
The yellows gone away

the mood is dull and gray
in darkness without light,
I don’t know what to say.

There’s no one left to play
within this toxic plight,
the yellows gone away,

with Welshness in decay,
no heart or gut to fight.
I don’t know what to say.

What a price to pay,
for something’s not quite right,
the yellows gone away
I don’t know what to say.

.............................................

The Daffodil (Revised)

Can it be now as then?
The daffodil with honour and pride,
will the valleys be yellow again?

Was bright yellow and golden,
heroic tears were spilled and cried.
Can it be now as then?

It first grew on the blade of a sword beholden,
not blue but crimson dyed.
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Did arouse and vivify Celtic pagan
and inspired Welshness and fortitude abide.
Can it be now as then?

In possession of the breath that’s taken
to breathe sanguine fire that died.
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Cenhinen Pedr ,amour propre awaken
thrust starless-darkness aside.
Can it be now as then,
will the valleys be yellow again?

Note: The daffodil is the national flower of Wales and symbolises chivalry. The Welsh for 'daffodil' is Cenhinen Pedr.
.................................................................................................................................
This is an attempt at a villanelle….hit me with your critique stick…lol...

The Daffodil

Can it be now as then?
The daffodil with honor and pride
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Was bright yellow and golden,
heroic tears were spilled and cried
Can it be now as then?

It first grew on the blade of a sword beholden
Not blue but crimson dyed
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Its nutrients were sanguine waken
giving worth, guidance and kinship abide
Can it be now as then?

In possession of the breath of aspiration woven,
brushed gutless-yellow aside
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Gave conquest, prize and dominion; amen,
not starless-darkness astride
Can it be now as then?
Will the valleys be yellow again?

Posted: **Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:35 pm**

The first three verses were a good attempt at a villanelle, but you you began to lose it (and me) from the beginning of V3. You picked a difficult form - the more you write, the harder the rhymes become to find. Your language structure became a casualty as you sacrificed it for the sake of rhyme -

Its nutrients were sanguine waken
giving worth, guidance and kinship abide - It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

In possession of the breath of aspiration woven,
brushed gutless-yellow aside

Gave conquest, prize and dominion; amen,
not starless-darkness astride - This takes the biscuit for cheek - Amen indeed.

Why not stick to free verse for now and hone your skills before attempting anything elaborate.

You deserve points for trying though.

Barrie

Posted: **Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:41 pm**

barrie wrote: Gave conquest, prize and dominion; amen,
not starless-darkness astride[/i] - This takes the biscuit for cheek - Amen indeed.
Barrie

Thanks Barrie, your feedback is really appreciated...I have been fiddling with the villanelle for a few weeks now...got another one in the drawer

...but will not post it until I fix this one (besides its probably an age away from being publishable - even in the beginner forum).

Thanks again...I am determined to pass this off as something like a villanelle, will rework the middle and end bits...

Posted: **Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:59 pm**

I've tried a villanelle myself - and they are very tricky. I'm not sure I would have the courage to post mine - although it might given everyone a good laugh!

I agree with Barrie, but do go back and give the villanelle another go later - I'm sure Dylan Thomas tried numerous times before he got a good one out of it! I think it's good to give some of the structured forms a go, not because we would necessarily do anything great at first, but because it gives us a valuable lesson in why certain forms have impact, and in what way, and that can only help the way all our poetry develops.

If you are determined to work on this as a villanelle - then can I suggest you consider working the seasons in?

Posted: **Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:38 pm**

Bloody hell - a villanelle! The poetic equivalent of a Rubik's cube. Way to go, Merl.

I think Barrie's critique stick (great phrase) is spot on, but super kudos for having a go at it. I think you'll do well here. You seem to have the right attitude, open, keen, but not over-impressionable. I hope you'll stick around.

Cheers

David

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:50 am**

I have reworked Rubik’s cube (nice analogy David)…..I feel its better……but hit me, hit me, hit me with that critique stick….

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:30 pm**

Merlin

Brave, very brave to work in such forms. My own preference is for strong language and sonics and then to see if form can add to the piece. I tend to think you are sacrificing language and sonics for form and ending up with some tortured lines like It first grew on the blade of a sword beholden

However - keep at it

Elphin

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:46 pm**

Merlo,

Welcome to the forum. I've been enjoying your posts over the last few days.

Anyway, not much to say here. Well done for givine a villanelle a go (my first, and only, one took me about 19 hours), but I think, as you know, some of the syntax is a bit buggered because of the rhyme. It suits the form though.

My little tip for the villanelle: play with the form. Keep the two refrains, but change the punctuation in the lines, since it can have a wonderful effect. Just by moving a comma, you can change the object in focus in a second, and often get some tasty phrases out of it. This felt a little repetitive because of its lack of variation.

If you want to practice your rigid formalism, write some triolets. They're not as traumatic as the villanelle, and can be half decent sometimes.

Keep it up
Dave

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:01 pm**

Elphin and Dave..Thank you both……..yeah – sure –

obvious syntax probs

..will work on it again

…I have something in my head to improve the syntax

…whether it will work remains to be seen….

Thanks – really appreciate it, this is a great forum…..

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:15 pm**

Merl, what happens if you try "the valleys yellow again" instead? It takes some of the lumpiness out of the rhythm, I think. Any good?

Are you really on Brazilian time?

Cheers

David

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:26 pm**

Thanks David…it’s a thought…..and funnily enough I was considering…

¨ There was a time when¨as opposed to Can it be now as then….

I thought the when at the end can lead me into possibly better content….what you think?

Yes – I am in Recife….have been for 5 years…..(it partly inspired my Cockroach thingy on the other thread…as did the D. H. L. The Mosquito….)

Thanks…

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:35 pm**

OK..changed tack a bit on this…but am determined to get a passable villanelle from the original concept….

Spent last night eating the 2 best villanelles ever written…. Edwin Arlington Robinson Walked on Water and Dylan T Walked on Whiskey

…with thanks to both, here is my bit…….

Hit me with your critique stick…….HIT ME, HIT Meeeeeeeee…….

The Daffodil (Revised, version 2)

The yellows gone away,
no daffodil in sight,
I don’t know what to say
they used to bloom till May,
adorn valleys with delight.
The yellows gone away
the mood is dull and gray
in darkness without light,
I don’t know what to say.
There’s no one left to play
the harpsichord at night,
the yellows gone away,
with Welshness in decay,
no heart or gut to fight.
I don’t know what to say.
What a price to pay,
for something’s not quite right,
the yellows gone away
I don’t know what to say.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:59 pm**

This is much better - Full marks for keeping at it and achieving your goal.

Just one suggestion from me.

they used to bloom till May,
adorn valleys with delight. - I think it might sound smoother with a one syllable word to replace adorn.

they used to bloom till May,
gild valleys with delight. - or something.

Nice one

Barrie

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:33 pm**

Thanks Barrie...I like your suggestion

...gild it is

...

They are a bugger to write, aren't they....

Off to fiddle with the other one in the drawer...now

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:49 pm**

Yeah, it's pretty good now. I actually regret the loss of the more formal tone from the first version, that was much more bard-like (didn't I criticise you for that at first? Oh, just ignore me), which I think worked well on this occasion, but I can't deny you've ended up with a snappy little villanelle here.

And it actually conveys meaning, which sometimes in villanelles is hard to do, people getting so tied up in the geometry of the piece that they lose sight of what they're trying to say.

Cheers

David

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:28 pm**

Hi

It's much better - very snappy.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:16 pm**

Revised again......version 3.....

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:18 am**

A beast of a format to tackle. Congratulations with your progress.

Just thought I should mention that the punctuation police might be dropping in

The yellows gone away,

looks like the apostrophe's gone away too.

og

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:35 am**

I hate to to knock a cymbrogi, but the poem is rather dreary even if it is about our magical land, but since you insist I hit you with my rhythm stick I will comply. Also, the guidelines tell me to be frank and to give an honest appraisal of your work even though it may hurt. And I have to get 2 crits in to make room for mine so here goes.

The villanelle is probably not the best style for the words you are posting, they are very simple and repeating mundane words like: ‘I don’t know what to say.’
These are words that should be anathema to a poet, we have to know what to say, it is not uplifting, it is dreary, it is sad to put such words in a poem. But to keep repeating them in every other stanza is distressing. At best they are fillers. If you insist on sticking to the words in this poem I suggest you try the Haikai, maybe 3 - 4 stanzas of 3 lines, L1-5 syllables, L2-7, L3 – 5. A Haikai should have a colour in it to indicate a season, and it should really capture a moment, a thought, an instant of scenery that reflect life. Very simple, no rhyme needed so you can dispense with fillers.

The daffodil is a very nice flower, but do you have to tell us it’s a daffodil? It pretty obvious, yellow and bloom up to May.

‘Gild valleys with delight’ is good, possibly the best in the whole attempt at a poem. Maybe, [Gild valleys with their sight,] would be an improvement. Valleys tell us about a mountainous landscape so it not far for us to associate Wales with yellow flowers and arrive at daffodils.

The repeated line: ‘The yellow’s gone away.’ Does nothing for me, died away is more realistic, at least they will flower again next year, unless someone has dug up all the bulbs.

Your strongest thought is: ‘with Welshness in decay,
no heart or gut to fight.’

This get to the heart of your poem, the demise and loss of Welsh culture, but it’s hardly true nowadays with the revival taking place with Welsh schools, self government, and revival of the language. But of course, you are entitled to think it so.

Probably you are equating the loss of our culture and making a simile with the daffodil but that makes no sense as the daffodil is as stronger than ever, I’ve never seen so many before, at every junction wayside and every roundabout. It’s becoming boring even.

I can go on and on in this vein for ages but it would only hurt your feelings, more but just one more the revised edition was worse, at least the first draft was concise.

My advice is to throw it away and start again, I know what you want to say. I know only too well, what is welling up inside you, we are all the same. Write it all down in prose, pages of the stuff then edit and edit to the core, then put into verses, if the rhyme doesn’t fit what you want to say then dispense with the rhyme. But get what you want to say right first then the flow will come on its own.

Sorry if I was negative.

Regards

Ioan

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:18 pm**

ioansant wrote:
Ioan,

As sure as eggs are eggs…. I knew you would hit on this poem…

Thanks for the critique, even though I don’t agree with it – entirely…

I must respond…

I have to get 2 crits in to make room for mine so here goes.

This sounds like you are forcing crits – surely not the way to play it?

‘I don’t know what to say.’
These are words that should be anathema to a poet, we have to know what to say, it is not uplifting, it is dreary, it is sad to put such words in a poem. But to keep repeating them in every other stanza is distressing.

On the contrary – surely , a good poet will be well aware of the limitation of words…

But to keep repeating them in every other stanza is distressing.

If you felt distressed reading my poem, I am very, very pleased….because I at least sparked an emotion – further, distress is quite strong…so I have achieved another goal…

If you insist on sticking to the words in this poem I suggest you try the Haikai

Haikai doesn’t float my boat – …

The daffodil is a very nice flower, but do you have to tell us it’s a daffodil? It pretty obvious, yellow and bloom up to May.

The repeated line: ‘The yellow’s gone away.’ Does nothing for me, died away is more realistic,
Surely died away is a more distressing statement than gone away?

Your strongest thought is: ‘with Welshness in decay,
no heart or gut to fight.’

This get to the heart of your poem, the demise and loss of Welsh culture, but it’s hardly true nowadays with the revival taking place with Welsh schools, self government, and revival of the language. But of course, you are entitled to think it so.

Its easy to draw on positive aspects of Welsh culture – but its hardly true to suggest that all aspects will flourish at the same time – only the other day the soccer team was accused of having no passion when playing for their country….

you are equating the loss of our culture and making a simile with the daffodil but that makes no sense as the daffodil is as stronger than ever,

It could be a simile and also metaphorical – besides, based on your crit, if it’s a simile it is used in an acceptable way. As in comparison of two unlike things…

Further, its not only (possibly) about the daffodil..it is about the colour yellow….which could conceivably represent the sunshine ….the cowardice – almost….

I can go on and on in this vein for ages but it would only hurt your feelings, more but just one more the revised edition was worse, at least the first draft was concise.

You won’t hurt my feelings mate…..no worries….

When I first saw you had crits on other pieces I was impressed – and considered….this guy knows his stuff….but when I saw your poems, I realised you are a mere mortal after all…

Finally, Ioan – thanks again for your input, it is really appreciated…..I am very, very new to poetry …and am keen to get feedback , be it pos or neg…..

I am going to run with what I got…..and will use the old versions for something else….

There is something about the villanelle form which I like….and will continue to work at the form…..lets see how I get on with it in the future….

Regards….

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:01 pm**

Merlin,

Just a couple of pedantic suggestions:

The yellows gone away,
- you need an apostrophe ("yellow's" = "yellow has")

no heart or gut to fight.
I think "guts" would sound better, unless you mean football hooligans with beer bellies

to pay for something’s not quite right,
= "to pay, because something is not quite right"
whereas I'm guessing you mean "to pay for something not quite right"

Hope these suggestions help - if not, bin 'em
Mr Picky

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:31 pm**

Thanks , TLF

There are big gaps in my grammar

…I must brush-up……

Any help with grammar is appreciated…..

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:23 pm**

Hi Merlin. Glad I caught this work...great the way it developed. Personally I find the idea that poets can't use ordinary language a bit snobby

. It's true to say that poetry expands your vocabulary somewhat, but do we have to forget how to have fun? I love writing to a form even if it's at the cost of not getting some profound hidden message across to the (expectant) reader. The villanelle (IMHO) is an amusing construction whatever the subject, and if you can make the damn thing make sense at all you're winning. I know this - I've sweated over them too.

Well done m8.

Mick

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:12 pm**

Thanks , Mick...really appreciate your feedback...

Yeah - this villanelle lark is a bugger alright.....gonna keep plugging a few more, before I move to a new form...

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:32 am**

Jester wrote: Personally I find the idea that poets can't use ordinary language a bit snobby .
Mick

Mick, I hope that's not aimed at me...

Geoffspeke is much closer to Yob that Snobgob.

My suggestions are aimed at the transcription of what Merlin is saying.
If you read 'em out you'll hardly notice any difference at all.

Geoff

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