Poetry Forum

For what we are about to eat (Accra/Ghana)

The goat’s head turns towards me
its’ mischievous eyes focused
lowering a gesturing head.
Grabbed from behind; kicking
dust as the front legs are
grabbed to confine.
Four of us now; pinning this
cloven hoofed eater of
anything and everything.
I straddle the writhing form
as it pauses then wriggles,
pauses and cries.
Sunlight catches the blade
as I draw it fast across
the tight throat panicking goat.
Desperation in guttural tones
thrashed wildly as blood
forms a semicircle of clotted dirt.
Four legs, tied in pairs pulsing,
ebbing, becoming limp.
A momentary stillness transpires.
The Muslim call to prayer from afar
carries by; on the air from behind.
While the grace of God and the Lord
have their moment in words
either side.



.

Don't be in so much of a rush to move your poems into Experienced - You'll be told when the moderators agree on it.
Again, there's far too much dressing here that's hiding the substance - better to write half a dozen meaningful lines (meaningful for the audience, if that's who your aiming for), than two dozen which are mainly decoration.

The goat’s head turns towards me
its’ mischievous eyes focused
lowering a gesturing head.
Grabbed from behind; kicking
dust as the front legs are
grabbed to confine. - Surely you can put the meaning of this into a couple of lines.

Four of us now; pinning this
cloven hoofed eater of
anything and everything.
I straddle the writhing form
as it pauses then wriggles,
pauses and cries. - You don't need to describe every little detail. Paint the soul, never mind the legs and arms - Browning - Fra Lippo Lippi

Maybe you're trying to be as detailed in your writing as you are in your sketching (the biro sketch in the Visual Art section was most impressive). You're overdoing it in many of your poems. When you've written something keep going back to it, and keep removing all of the husk until you have the seed. I may have suggested this before - read some Japanese or Chinese zen/ch'an stuff - there's plenty on the net.

Barrie

Barrie

Thanks for the comments and taking a look at the poem. Yes I probably get carried away with detail a little. I actually write for myself as a poetic diary of thoughts and events in my life. I am in no great rush to have my work on the other board, but two boards is better than one.
I just thought that maybe I would post one now and then to see how it goes and have mix of experience in the replies. Having had a good read of the other board I do fail to see how some of the utter drivell that is amongst the quality work fails to be moved. It seems to me that the poet is labelled and not always the work posted. I have posted some complete crap on the other board on at least one occasion which is still there. The very least I would expect on a forum which is obviously well run by comitted people is real consistency. I can see that once a writer is deemed worthy to post at the "experienced" board they can then post complete bollocks without it being moved. I think I will stick with my conclusion of earlier this week and not bother with the other board. This one has some real variety going on with experimentation in metre and rhyme. I can see little to be gained in wittling away and labouring over a poem to have it near perfect, only to have others debate over the possible alternatives which might only be subjective. Every writer has a style and their own vision which should be nurtured and not like a round peg that has to banged into a fucking square hole. Yes let's all have perfect punctuation; so that as in music the person with the instrument knows when to play a note, how loud, and for how long. Playing with the melody has a real danger of making the whole damn thing monotone: I can have that any time, when I stick my fingers in my ears. Artistry, feeling, the conveyance of feeling and emotion are the threads with which I sew. If I try to paint an ant with a pallete knife, It might not look like an ant when I finish but it will certainly contain my feelings about the ant. So when a person writes their fucking heart out and manages to express some real experience or mood, I think it is only fair to balance that with the vehicle used to deliver it. I am not one for writing expletives, but it does seem to be a universal laguage for some here in the absence of anything useful to say. So if an experienced writer is simply a person who is experienced in making the fucking mundane read like the invention of the wheel: I'll stick with with having my experiences read mundane.

Danté

So are you saying that only people who consider your your writing a finished article need make any comments. If you don't want to change your style, fair enough: if you think that your use of language is fine and in no need of change, fair enough. But if that's what you really believe then why chose a poetry workshop to show off your poems?

If you think some of the poems in the Experienced section are crap then why don't you say so on the board and give your reasons - I'm sure the writer(s) would like to know. I like to think that we're all here to learn from each other, to listen, if possible, and be prepared to make changes - not to carry on writing the same thing and then trying to justify it. Like I've already said, I have seen improvement, but then you go back to being overdescriptive.

Sorry for interfering - it's your stuff.

Tim - quick vox pop - some poetry sites don't split the posters into "Beginners" and "Experienced", but in terms of the sort of feedback they would like to receive, e.g. kind, deep, searching, cruel etc.

Do you think that would be a better approach?

I'm not saying we'd do it - I haven't even broached this with my fellow mods yet (hi guys!) - but it would be interesting to know what you (and anybody else) thought about it.

There may be all kinds of reasons not to do it that way, but I'm not really sure what they are at the moment.

I am curious, lemon.

Cheers

David

Barrie

No I am not saying that only people who consider my writing the finished article should comment. If I somehow have inferred that, it was not meant as so. I very much appreciate the fact that people take time to read my writing and comment. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone offering suggestions in respect of it. I also am not at all bothered by scathing criticism if it can be backed up by a factual formula and justified. I do offer my thoughts if I think something is crap. I just do it in a slightly more articulate way. Just telling a person their poetry is crap is worse than saying nothing. Behind every post is a person, who will most likely learn more from a reasoned, balanced critique which is constructive. After all, anything other than punctuation and basic grammar is subjective; providing the words actually say something. I am not personally trying to justify anything as I don’t feel that I have to: especially to people who know fuck all about me and think they can put me in pigeon hole on the strength of a splinter of my persona. I did not wish to post on the experienced board because I believe I am any better than anyone else. I am however experienced as I have been writing poetic diaries most of my life. My style of writing is open to gradual change and improvement. We all have our own ways of conveying in words, things we might like to document and share. What I am trying to say is this:
if a time comes when the powers that be, decide I am welcome to post on the experienced board. It will not be because of any relevance to my experience: it will simply be that I have learned to meet expectations. In my mind that would be false and totally lacking any sincerity. People are all different and have access to varying levels of formal education. Personally I don’t mind admitting being branded as some kind of halfwit as a child. This gave me a real advantage, as while the other kids were reading about life in books. I was up to my armpits in life, tasting, smelling, and getting knocked on my arse by it at times. So as I have said please don’t think I have any idea of justifying any short fall in my own writing ability. I simply won’t have people make assumptions about me, when in reality they know nothing. And yes I am here to learn how to improve my writing but certainly wont be wasting any time gaining experience here!

David

I am a guest here as such and grateful to be so. I might not be the brightest bulb but I do have a reasonable sense of fairness and treat everyone with respect until they give cause for me to do otherwise. There is little wrong with the current set up if only there was an objective approach applied. A poster posting on the experienced board should realise from the info already here, that the crit will be harsher and not beaten around the bush. “not a love in” At the moment it runs like an old boys club and really only caters for those who have academia in their arsenal. Times have changed and if I personally lived in the real world with that approach I would be dead by now. My pet hate is people thinking they know what they obviously do not about anyone. Old school is exactly what it says. An open mind embraces experience which in turn becomes wisdom. A closed mind, as programmed as it might be; will never find its own arse in the dark with a toothpick. As writers we wish to be understood, so surely as readers we should try to understand.

Danté

Okay, I feel as though I asked for an opinion and got a sermon. Still, Timbo, I think you make some valid points (and some less so).

Let's take a closer look.

I am a guest here as such and grateful to be so.

And we're happy to have you.

I might not be the brightest bulb

That's not my impression of you.

but I do have a reasonable sense of fairness and treat everyone with respect until they give cause for me to do otherwise.

Fine.

There is little wrong with the current set up if only there was an objective approach applied. A poster posting on the experienced board should realise from the info already here, that the crit will be harsher and not beaten around the bush. “not a love in”

Fine again.

At the moment it runs like an old boys club

Not so much that, I think, but inevitably people who have been here for a long time have only been here for a long time because they feel comfortable with each other. That should not express itself as hostility to newcomers, and we try to avoid that - not, I would admit, always successfully, but then again sometimes newcomers make things difficult for themselves. Often, however, they are accepted on equal terms almost immediately - as recent examples of that I would give (e.g.) Oskar and jms. I agree that it doesn't always happen, but there is (I think) no predisposition to freeze "newbies" out. They have to behave, though, and by "behave" I suppose I mean they have to conform to the custom of the country. If they don't like that custom, well, there are other poetry sites, and vaya con Dios and our blessings on your head.

and really only caters for those who have academia in their arsenal.

This is where I think you start to depart from reality. Without actually knowing, I would guess that most of the moderators are not graduates. I'm not. However, they remain sufficiently interested in the world ("the real world", in your rather questionable terminology) to have acquainted themselves with a lot of it, past and present. This is not evidence of anything academic. This is just paying attention.

Times have changed and if I personally lived in the real world with that approach I would be dead by now.

If you are trying to imply that you are living "in the real world", and I (and anyone else) am not, then you're way off. Tragically deluded in a kind of teenaged solipsistic way. The last time I looked, my world was real. You needn't worry your pretty little head about that.

My pet hate is people thinking they know what they obviously do not about anyone.

Well exactly! What did I just say?

Old school is exactly what it says.

God knows what you're on about here.

An open mind embraces experience which in turn becomes wisdom. A closed mind, as programmed as it might be; will never find its own arse in the dark with a toothpick. As writers we wish to be understood, so surely as readers we should try to understand.

And in a heart-warmingly upbeat finale, I agree with you. But I think you need to learn to express yourself in the knowledge that sometimes, with the best will in the world, people will misunderstand you. I'm sure that somewhere, at some level, I have misunderstood you, and I apologise for that. But there's no malice involved. I wish you all the best, and I hope you'll stay to light up this forum for a long time to come, and that all our future misunderstandings - of which I'm sure there will be many - will be fruitful and amiable.

And good luck with finding your arse. (Joke!)

For what it's worth, it's my purely personal opinion that anyone should be able to post in Experienced if they think they deserve that description. A lot of other folk disagree with me on that, for reasons which I understand and acknowledge, but ... that's my opinion.

Anyway, you do what you feel comfortable with, and all the best with it.

Cheers

David

Danté wrote:Barrie

No I am not saying that only people who consider my writing the finished article should comment. If I somehow have inferred that, it was not meant as so. I very much appreciate the fact that people take time to read my writing and comment. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone offering suggestions in respect of it. I also am not at all bothered by scathing criticism if it can be backed up by a factual formula and justified. I do offer my thoughts if I think something is crap. I just do it in a slightly more articulate way. Just telling a person their poetry is crap is worse than saying nothing. Behind every post is a person, who will most likely learn more from a reasoned, balanced critique which is constructive. After all, anything other than punctuation and basic grammar is subjective; providing the words actually say something. I am not personally trying to justify anything as I don’t feel that I have to: especially to people who know fuck all about me and think they can put me in pigeon hole on the strength of a splinter of my persona. I did not wish to post on the experienced board because I believe I am any better than anyone else. I am however experienced as I have been writing poetic diaries most of my life. My style of writing is open to gradual change and improvement. We all have our own ways of conveying in words, things we might like to document and share. What I am trying to say is this:
if a time comes when the powers that be, decide I am welcome to post on the experienced board. It will not be because of any relevance to my experience: it will simply be that I have learned to meet expectations. In my mind that would be false and totally lacking any sincerity. People are all different and have access to varying levels of formal education. Personally I don’t mind admitting being branded as some kind of halfwit as a child. This gave me a real advantage, as while the other kids were reading about life in books. I was up to my armpits in life, tasting, smelling, and getting knocked on my arse by it at times. So as I have said please don’t think I have any idea of justifying any short fall in my own writing ability. I simply won’t have people make assumptions about me, when in reality they know nothing. And yes I am here to learn how to improve my writing but certainly wont be wasting any time gaining experience here!

David

I am a guest here as such and grateful to be so. I might not be the brightest bulb but I do have a reasonable sense of fairness and treat everyone with respect until they give cause for me to do otherwise. There is little wrong with the current set up if only there was an objective approach applied. A poster posting on the experienced board should realise from the info already here, that the crit will be harsher and not beaten around the bush. “not a love in” At the moment it runs like an old boys club and really only caters for those who have academia in their arsenal. Times have changed and if I personally lived in the real world with that approach I would be dead by now. My pet hate is people thinking they know what they obviously do not about anyone. Old school is exactly what it says. An open mind embraces experience which in turn becomes wisdom. A closed mind, as programmed as it might be; will never find its own arse in the dark with a toothpick. As writers we wish to be understood, so surely as readers we should try to understand.

Danté

Dante

You seem to equate "not having an academic education" with "experiencing life in its fullest, bloodiest and most alive way", and vice versa. In this way you yourself make the assumptions that you detest in other people, and you make it sound like you think you are indeed better than anyone else.

We all have different upbringings and we have all had our fair share of sugar and fair share of shit along the way.

I might also add that when you post a poem here I think you'll normally get critique on the writing, not on your own character. Detaching yourself from your art is one of the most important things to learn, both in terms of how to edit and improve on a great idea, and in terms of retaining your sanity by not becoming a metaphysical extension of your writings. Ironically, the inability to detach one's self from one's creations puts you in the category of those who are stuck "reading about life in books", as it were, instead of living it.

Regarding the poem, I thought it was ok and warranted no further effort on anyone's part, although I am a fan of the visually-pleasing so would have preferred it to have some semblance of form.

Cheers

Stuart

I agree there are some valid and less valid points throughout this exchange.
Points have been made on all sides and today is another day.
Yes I have clouded the waters with a lot of my rant here and take that fairly and squarely on the chin. I hope that at least one small shred of positivity comes to fruition out of this discussion.

Now after making a bit of an arse of myself, I will refill the faithful pen and use it for poetry and not for finding my arse with in th dark.

Thanks David, and also Stuart for the crit. Barrie, I don't expect you to be any more pliable than I but I do hope none of this gives an impression that I have any personal ill regard towards you. I read a lot here and do see the amount of time and care you put into the place.

Tim

Good on you, Tim. I think we've cleared the air there. Onward and upward!

I'm enjoying the poems from your travels. You've clearly done quite a bit of it, and it informs the poems with a certain quiet authority. I don't always agree with the conclusions you draw, but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment.

Let's have more.

Cheers

David

I think David's suggestion of posting poems where they know the kind of feedback they would receive is a very good one. Is this something you are still considering?
zalina, x

Hi Zalina

Yes the idea is a good one. To be honest I had my rant and ended up wandering down avenues that should have been utilised for my poetry for no good reason. I have no problem with any level of critique from any quarter, I am sure if you have read between the lines here the actuality of what had me fired up is apparent. I don't care where my work is posted any more as I have looked at my own short falls and will work in my own way to advance my skills as a poet. All I want to think about is writing what I would like to express freely. If I write, wondering if the work is worthy of where it is placed the purity will become a tainted prostitute. So at least if I continually produce shit and post it at ground level, it will always land on the same heap.

Kind regards

Danté