What Blake didn't say about Innocence (Was: 'Innocence')

[Firebird]

V6

Wool snagged
on barbed wire

where lambs tested
their boundaries.


V5

Wool snagged
on barbed wire

where lambs tested
the boundaries

of their world.


V4

Where lambs tested
the boundaries

wool snagged
on barbed wire.


V3

Where lambs tested
their boundaries

wool snagged
on a barbed wire fence



V2

Wool clings
to a barbed wire fence

where lambs tested
their boundaries

V1

Wool snagged on a barbed-wire fence

where lambs have tested
the boundaries of their world.

[Macavity]

hi Tristan

Potential drama in the title, but in contrast the poem felt less wired. I think this bone needs more red meat!

What there is could be leaner...

where lambs tested boundaries of their world.

You could play with ownership...'our' rather than 'their'.

best

mac

[Firebird]

Thanks Mac,

I agree that the title is more promising that the poem and you are correct it could be more economical.

Cheers,

Tristan

[JJWilliamson]

I like it very much, Tristan

The image and metaphor are quite striking IMHO.

The title is an integral part of the poem, which you could include in the main body
with a tweak here and there. As a whole it conjures a host of country images, suggesting
we all test those boundaries and have the scars to prove it. 'Lambs' is particularly pertinent
as the young explore, take the knocks and leave their mark.

Here's a possibility. I've only changed one word.

Snagged (title suggestion)

Wool clings
to the barbed-wire fence

where lambs tested
the boundaries.

Enjoyed

Best

JJ

where lambs have tested
the boundaries of their world.

[Firebird]

JJ, I like your suggestion. Think your suggested title does the same thing though as 'cling' in the poem, so I have come up with another one. New version posted.

Many thanks, JJ.

Cheers,

Tristan

[JJWilliamson]

JJ, I like your suggestion. Think your suggested title does the same thing though as 'cling' in the poem, so I have come up with another one. New version posted.

Many thanks, JJ.

Cheers,

Tristan

Yes, I thought that as well but I'd be loath to ditch 'snag/snagged'. It's absolutely spot on. I'd rather lose 'cling'.

V2

Wool clings ...Could the wool do something other than cling? EG 'hangs on barbed-wire fences''. OR 'blows' The plural of fence helps you to drop the indefinite article and opens up the metaphor to a broader group. I think 'lambs' provides the innocence.
to a barbed wire fence.

where lambs tested
their boundaries

Best

JJ

[Firebird]

Hi JJ, thanks for coming back. I agree that Innocence is already implied in the poem by lambs.

I could go really minimal and have the poem like this:

Where lambs tested
boundaries

wool snagged
on barbed wire.

And leave it with out a title. I kind of still like the idea of the title 'Innocence'. It does make the poem more accessible.

Cheers,

Tristan

[Macavity]

Wool snagged
on barbed wire

where lambs tested
the boundaries.


Like where this has gone Tristan, though I miss the 'their world' signpost and I do think the importance of boundaries should end the poem. Glad to see snagged back - better sonics, less dramatising than 'cling'.

I don't like the title: too connective to Blake, especially with 'lamb'.

best

mac

[Firebird]

Thanks Mac, and I agree about the Blake connection. I'll have a think about the title.

Cheers,

Tristan

[1lankest]

I like it, but I snag on the barbed wire too.

Couldn't you say: wool snags on the wire (barbed is implied isn't it)?

Luke

[Richard]

It's nicely executed. I don't much like the new title. I'm not sure it carries me into the poem, as I am now looking for an insight on Blake or innocence I can't see.


Best

R

[David]

I think I like V2. V1 bothered me because it wasn't actually a sentence. I tend to be unduly (perhaps) bothered by such things. But the original first line would improve V2.

I don't like the Blake reference in the title, though. The poem could hardly be more unBlakean. (Pretty much wot Richard said, I see.)

But - in some of its incarnations - a nicely expressed thought.

Cheers

David

[Antcliff]

Greetings

I'm not sure that I see the point of giving the last line..v5..so much emphasis by putting it on its own. Feels a bit shouty?

In fact I would not miss the last line if it was shorn. I suspect that the reader will grasp that the lamb is testing those boundaries?

On the Blake debate. The title is rather grand for what is there. I assume it is drawing on the anthem "Jerusalem"...with the holy lamb of god in fact trapped inside the field O' England.....and thereby representing, say, the poor abused masses in Post/Brexit Tory England where...or some such, etc, etc. However, I do think it is better than the original title. It gives the poem something of a historical backcloth. And indeed adding "Innocence" to "lamb" did feel redundant.

Seth

[Macavity]

Interesting title Tristan...should provoke...hook...wire a few readers. I see it has! Look forward to the poem on experience

best

mac

[Firebird]

Luke, I'm glad you like it. Not sure if wire does imply barbed wire in this context.

Richard, the poem uses the lamb as a symbol for innocence, which Blake does too in his Songs of Innocence. However, he does not use the lamb to talk about how difficult it can be for an innocent youth to go beyond their innocence and how failed attempts can be a thorny experience. This is the reason for the title. Maybe the title should be: What Blake doesn't say about innocence.

David, I'm glad you thought it was a nicely expressed idea (in some incarnations). I'll think about your comments relating to the versions. I think the fact that this poem is very different in style from Blake's poems strengthen the title. More reasons for the title are above in my reply to Richard.

Seth, it wasn't intended as anti Brexit poem at all. It was a simple image about how difficult it can be for an innocent youth to go beyond their innocence and how failed attempts can be a thorny experience. I think you are right about L5. It will go. I'm pleased you liked the title.

Mac, the title's staying! You are right, it does provoke a reaction. The poem about experience would have to have a Tyger.

All input much appreciated.

Cheers All!

Tristan

[Crayon]

V6

Wool snagged
on barbed wire

where lambs have tested
their boundaries.

Do lambs really test such sharp boundaries? Isn't the wool most likely from adult sheep that just brush against the fence while grazing?

I think "clings" gave too much agency to wool.

You said you like the title "Innocence" because it makes the poem more accessible, (By telling the reader its theme?) but then you changed it to a cryptic clue that requires knowledge of Blake's work.

In light of that epic Blakean title preceding eleven words, I'm fearful of using a word as judgemental as 'pretentious', so I'll just leave it timidly there.

You could kind of HAIKUFY IT!

Wool snagged on fences
where sheep brush the boundary
of a barbed-wire world.

[Firebird]

Hi Crayon,

I'd say your first point is nit picking a bit as I've seen both lamb and sheep wool caught on barbed wire during April and May.

I agree about the verb 'cling'. It's a good point.

I changed the title from 'innocence' to 'What Blake didn't say' only after it was pointed out to me that 'Innocence' was too explit as a title as this meaning was already clear by the use of the lamb.

You've clearly not got a timid bone in your body Crayon. You said the word 'pretentious' very clearly. You just said it in a round about way.

Cheers,

Tristan

[Ros]

My opinion would be that if you're going to reference Blake them you do need rather more to back it up, preferably in a Blakean style.

I'm afraid at the moment it leaves me feeling a bit 'yes, and?' (since we're being untimid!). Young animals test boundaries. Not sure it actually has much reference to innocence, just exploration.

Ros

[Ros]

(I know you're a fan of the short poem, but I'd like to see you get your teeth into something longer, something where the implications of the metaphor are discussed and developed).

[Firebird]

Young animals test boundaries. Not sure it actually has much reference to innocence, just exploration.

Ros

If you say 'animals' as you do, I would say you are correct. But my poem speaks of a specific type of animal - lambs, which are young and are a common symbol in poetry for innocence. So I would say you are wrong in saying that the poem doesn't actually have much reference to innocence. I suppose a lot of this is to do with the way one reads poetry. I do tend to over interp which sometimes overspills into my own poetry, but in this case I don't think it has.

Cheers,

Tristan

[Firebird]

I do write longer now and then but mostly it's not very successful. But obviously I'll continue to try.

Cheers,

Tristan

[Antcliff]

Seth, it wasn't intended as anti Brexit poem at all. It was a simple image about how difficult it can be for an innocent youth to go beyond their innocence and how failed attempts can be a thorny experience. I think you are right about L5. It will go. I'm pleased you liked the title.

Ha! Caught out over-interpreting.

However, I would add that if you have the new title only, then many readers will move swiftly from Blake plus Lamb to Jerusalem. And hence, given its status as almost THE English anthem, to a more political reading. So though I may have over-read, I do think the new title for the poem rather invites it.


Seth

[Firebird]

Thanks for returning Seth. I'm not sure though readers first thought will be about the lamb in 'Jerusalem'. Surely, the reader is much more likely to think of the poem entitled 'The Lamb' by Blake.

Cheers,

Tristan

[ray miller]

People don't usually test boundaries innocently, do they?

[Firebird]

People don't usually test boundaries innocently, do they?

No, people who are innocent test boundaries and sometimes get hurt.