In chapel

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dogofdiogenes
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Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:48 pm

This is rough and written as i cannot settle my mind. Night, night all.


In chapel


should my feet remove themselves
into another room; I'll win.

I loved the boy with the thick
thick cock
his life a gun trained on his mind
who dared to like a world which
only billed him for his violence.
Bramber 3, a death cell green, the
home to random acts of acquiesence,
absent paranoia.

(trees with paper tears grate themselves
over the grass. Asylum Street is empty
as the linoleum smiles. There is nothing
else which it can do, stroked into state with
polish by attendants who are busy attending).

He also smoothed the corridor but shook
as if it spoke. Until
the mortuary was real, he thought
the clock was telling jokes. Now he names
a snooker cup. And me.

His feet will not remove themselves
again. I win, but not for him.


:shock: :shock: :shock: dog who cannot doze
I never give explanations-Mary Poppins (Management in the NHS-rewritten by Nightingale F,. original by Hunt,.G)
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barrie
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Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:07 pm

Another one which I've wrestled with and found it hard to get a grip. It seems to be about a patient who's commited suicide/died in a special cell - but I don't seem to be able to understand what you're getting at here. You always use choice phrases -

his life a gun trained on his mind
who dared to like a world which
only billed him for his violence.
- I thought this was very good, but I also found it paradoxical. Why would someone who liked the world offer up only violence?

I've read it over a dozen times now, and I'm still no nearer to what you're realling trying to say. Unless it's just - So what, who cares, who really gives a damn, and if they do, then so what? It happens, and the world glides by untouched.

(trees with paper tears grate themselves
over the grass. Asylum Street is empty
as the linoleum smiles. There is nothing
else which it can do, stroked into state with
polish by attendants who are busy attending).


Maybe I'm just being thick or maybe you're being a little too opaque.

Barrie
After letting go of branches and walking through the ape gait, we managed to grasp what hands were really for......
dogofdiogenes
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Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:23 pm

I think, Barrie, it is my perennial problem of opaqueness. I do have a tendency to forget that what is blindingly clear to me isn't like that for anyone-and I certainly don't mean that patronisingly. i forget not everyone does what I do because I take it for granted so much and I think that that spills over into other things. I have a fear of being too obvious!!
So here's a short explanation: this young man was someone I nursed who was chronically manically depressive. When unwell, he could (and did) cause thousands of pounds' worth of damage to Intensive Care Units...when he was well, he ran a garage, had a girlfriend. Eventually he gassed himself. He had had enough and he really did suffer-he lost his business and his partner because of an illness over which he had minimal control. But he was terrifically angry about his problem, too, as you might be, and he took all the anger out on himself. Which, even as staff, left us feeling angry because we had failed him somehow, could have stopped it, all the usual things. At the end, he was angry and he was the one who really lost out. We lost him, he lost everything...enough of this stuff, I think. Anger like paint, splashed everywhere.

Thank you , though. Will continue with the clarity challenge, could be here for some time yet! (Good lord, i wonder how complex I can make Christmas sound!)
:D
bindog
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dogofdiogenes
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Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:32 pm

And believe me, the general public really do not care about mental health problems so long as they don't get knifed by one....since I am a bit worked up now, the number of murders committed each year by people you might call "mentaly unwell" is around 12% of the murders committed all round (the U.K.). Of that 12%, 2% are killed by someone they do not know and have never known ie. complete strangers. the rest of the victims are friend and family, as is more usual for the victim population at large. But that isn't the perception.
I used to run a pub with my husband and people who are drunk are far more of a problem than my patients-but I guess that isn't newsworthy. We think we know what those ogres look like.
Sorry to be a bore, need to go and calm down!

draineddog :? :roll: :wink:
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barrie
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Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:51 am

And believe me, the general public really do not care about mental health problems so long as they don't get knifed by one....
So it wasn't too opaque then - at least I got some of the thought behind it.

I'm no expert on mental illness, but the very nature of it has made it a near perfect scapegoat for various social ills for centuries - even in today's so called 'enlightened' society. Plus, it makes good newpaper headlines - and 24 hour news programmes.
There's always some minority or other that's been used as a scratching post by the rest of society - the cat has to keep its claws sharp.
The Drink lobby has been too strong for alcohol to be blamed for very much - It pays for governments' dancing lessons. Besides, it's easier to say that people drink because of their problems, rather than drink can cause them.

Stay annoyed

Barrie
After letting go of branches and walking through the ape gait, we managed to grasp what hands were really for......
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twoleftfeet
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Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:55 am

Hi Mutt,

Some things are, of course, much clearer after your explanation, but this line:
l Ioved the boy with the thick
thick cock

- completely misled me: I thought the poem was about one of those women who marry violent criminals on Death Row. To be honest, I doubt whether it tallies with the NHS definition of "good nursing practice" :)

Geoff
dogofdiogenes
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Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:22 am

His girlfriend loved him, even when she couldn't stay with him-and I took her perspective more than a nursing one! it wasn't that she stopped caring about him-she just used to say she couldn't cope anymore, she'd switched off. She was numb, then got number. i don't know what happened to her.

meaningful mutt :(
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David
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Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:18 pm

Undozing dog, I don't know whether you are a Guardian reader - somehow I suspect you may be - but a few years ago they had a column written every week by a junior doctor, under a pseudonym, who ended up going into psychiatry. I'm sure he covered a lot of the same ground that you have here. Did you ever see it? It was published as a book as well, I think. Angry and frustrated, yes, but also very funny.

As for the poem, I can see the passion, and a lot of your usual way with words as well, but it seems too personal, almost impenetrable to an outsider. If you can make it less arcane, but keep the anger, you could really be on to something.

Cheers

David
RobertFlorey
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Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:57 pm

dogofdiogenes wrote:This is rough and written as i cannot settle my mind. Night, night all.


In chapel


should my feet remove themselves
into another room; I'll win.

I loved the boy with the thick
thick cock
his life a gun trained on his mind
who dared to like a world which
only billed him for his violence.
Bramber 3, a death cell green, the
home to random acts of acquiesence,
absent paranoia.

(trees with paper tears grate themselves
over the grass. Asylum Street is empty
as the linoleum smiles. There is nothing
else which it can do, stroked into state with
polish by attendants who are busy attending).

He also smoothed the corridor but shook
as if it spoke. Until
the mortuary was real, he thought
the clock was telling jokes. Now he names
a snooker cup. And me.

His feet will not remove themselves
again. I win, but not for him.


:shock: :shock: :shock: dog who cannot doze

This poem is wonderfully intriguing, because of the structure and
language you used, the arrangements of words you created.

But it is like 'modern art' in that if sense is to be made of it, it
must be made by the observer and not supplied by the
artist. To be blunt, I cannot tell if the speaker is suffering from
something like bipolar disorder, probably slipping between a manic
phase and a depressive phase, or perhaps is a paranoid schizophrenic,
in the throes of a not quite deep enough to be real bout of
logorrhea; or if it is an observer of the patient, speaking for his
as well as about him.

Or her.

I tried googgling asylum street, and found two in Britain and one
in Hartford Connecticut, and Bramber, and found Rape of Bramber,
which is not a crime but rather a location in Britain, but nothing
that matched it all.

I failed utterly to make any real sense of this, except that someone
was in dire straights mentally, had loose associations, and in a
delusional way, hoped for release through going to a different room,
perhaps death.

The violence was certainly a clue that the institution is for the
criminally insane. The wandering associations, the fairly constant
mixing up of factors of reality; the paper leaves, (oh, on reading
it as I'm typing this, I see "absent paranoia" so I'm now guessing
bi-polar), linoleum that can smile -- have a personality, have
a mouth of sorts, have expression, be alive, be stroked into
calmness by the attendants (it's really the subject who is being
stroked, I'm guessing, but he's projecting), who smooths the
corridor as though it were malleable or even alive, and who shakes
as if it spoke (because to him, it did speak, or projected its
thoughts or mood or both, into his mind).

Until the mortuary would become real, time was tricking him,
his own mind was tricking him. Apparently he did not improve
with drugs; the only way out, now going from mania to depression,
was death.

Since the poem starts in the past tense, and then moves to
present, it is a doctor or attendant, maybe even a relative, who
is the author of the piece. But again, I'm guessing.

It shifts in to present narrative, showing the ongoing course of the
disease and its effects, and we also get at the end a complete
reversal, if I'm guessing aright, of perspective.

That is, we go from an unattributed statement that if should my feet remove themselves
into another room; I'll win,

to: His feet will not remove themselves
again. I win, but not for him.

This is interesting because it shows that the speaker is and isn't
someone who works around the patient or visits the patient,
but is a highly personal third party voice, who has a stake in the
outcome, but can read minds. He reads the patient's mind in this
poem, yet he appears to be something like an attendant.

This is intriguing also, but I suspect that you may have lost the thread
between the start and the end, or you just plain weren't intending
for the poem to be understandable to anyone but you.

One has a fundamental choice when writing something.
One either has an intended audience of one, the author, or one
intends to entertain and/or inform a larger audience.

In the first case, associations which are unique to the author and not
to anyone else are justified, but perhaps publication isn't.

In the second case, the author must be sure not only to locate the place
and time, but also to provide detail about actual events, written as
images that are as universal as possible, in order to give the reader
a fair chance at digging out what the author intends to be dug up.

This one is beautiful in it's sound and flow, but I think may be so
intensely personal to what you know and we don't, that we cannot
benefit from anything but the beauty of the arrangement, while
you can benefit from your own, what? Perhaps resolution of a tragedy,
(this person seems bent on killing himself if he can organize it up),
a closure.

Now I'll go read the other critiques and find out that I'm a fool who
missed clues that were entirely obvious!
dogofdiogenes
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Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:29 pm

Robert,

we haven't had the pleasure of meeting, but I've decided to print off your long and thoughtful critque and read it with a bit of leisure. I'm grateful that you have given it such consideration, although I think that the main thrust of your comments is pretty much what is said about most of my posts so far...just for information...Bramber was just the name of a local lock-up ward along the South Coast (England) and Asylum street was just a term which the inhabitants of the bin in which I once worked used for the long long main corridor of the old aylum building. A proper victorian pile, water tower, the works..

Thgank you again

dyspepsic dog :P
I never give explanations-Mary Poppins (Management in the NHS-rewritten by Nightingale F,. original by Hunt,.G)
Elphin
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:25 pm

dog of d

Yet again you have a fantastic attention grabbing first line and a whole series of great phrases. This stanza in particular

trees with paper tears grate themselves
over the grass. Asylum Street is empty
as the linoleum smiles. There is nothing
else which it can do, stroked into state with
polish by attendants who are busy attending
).

I think Asylum Street is generic enough to get away with but Bramber 3 is too much personal knowledge.

But then the old opaqueness comes back. I'd love to see you knock this and Remembering Mum into shape. IMHO you have some of the best and most original material and phraseology in the forum - if only you could knock it into shape.

Elphin
dogofdiogenes
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Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:13 pm

Elphin,

many thanks for that. i am trying to work at the opaqueness, but I think it's a state of mind which i need to develop-and one which would not have come to my notice,without being here. I'm trying to do a Christmas for the forum next and I'm hoping that there will be nothing opaque about that!!

destroyedbycold dog :roll: :roll:
I never give explanations-Mary Poppins (Management in the NHS-rewritten by Nightingale F,. original by Hunt,.G)
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