Intergenerational Lesbianism (54/101; provisional title)

[thoke]

Intergenerational Lesbianism (54/101*)

There is nothing in your bodies together
and what you want to do with those legs,
that new skin, it’s understandable. It isn’t theft
when a bee jars her own honey or a larva
in a cocoon of sheets accepts your butterfly kisses.
Our disapproval stems from we don’t know what plant,
but it’s clear that if we cared
about the ecology of insects,
the garden wouldn’t be in such a mess.

________________
*See '1/101': viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8708

[Yes, the title is shit. Help me out please.]

[David]

Hmm. Not sure what you're saying in the first three lines. Or the last three. That should probably be "larva" in line 4. Sorry I can't be more help with this one, Ben.

Cheers

David

[rushme]

your images:

bee, honey, larva, cocoon of sheets, butterfly kisses - does in a way bring out the essence

your disapproval is a bit confusing - as you say yourself - stemming from - 'we don't know what plant - righteous...maybe?

the closing lines not clear to me at all:

if we cared
about the ecology of insects,
the garden wouldn’t be in such a mess.

does it mean that if one cared enough about the history of cause & effect - the genelogy of such problems - there wouldn't be any lesbianism?

intergenerational...? does that mean through generations?

[thoke]

the closing lines not clear to me at all:

if we cared
about the ecology of insects,
the garden wouldn’t be in such a mess.

does it mean that if one cared enough about the history of cause & effect - the genelogy of such problems - there wouldn't be any lesbianism?

No, it means if we really cared about freedom from sexual abuse then we wouldn't give such crap sex education to children.

intergenerational...? does that mean through generations?

This is a poem about female paedophiles.

Ben

[rushme]

holy cow! i'm really dense!

but if that's what it is i'm afraid the images don't work for me.

hope you don't mind - just my honest thought

bee jars, honey, butterfly kisses are: too pretty images to describe such horrendous acts.

doesn't jell with me - not that i mean there should be vipers & snakes - but at least not honey & stuff...

' This is a poem about female paedophiles.' -then i would definitly know what plant my disapproval stems from.

a bit wishy-washy for such a subject.

[thoke]

' This is a poem about female paedophiles.' -then i would definitly know what plant my disapproval stems from.

Paedophiles as in people who find children sexually attractive. Not as in people who rape children. If you still disapprove, do you really know where that stems from?

Ben

[Mic]

Hi Thoke,

Unless you are singling out those female paedophiles whose predilection is for girls, then you def. need a new title.

PS - If it weren't for your explanation, I really wouldn't have had the foggiest what this was about! That said - and before meaning surfaced - I enjoyed the sound of this particular set and order of words.

Mic

[thoke]

Unless you are singling out those female paedophiles whose predilection is for girls...

I am. But I do need a new title, yes.

PS - If it weren't for your explanation, I really wouldn't have had the foggiest what this was about! That said - and before meaning surfaced - I enjoyed the sound of this particular set and order of words.

Thanks. I'm not really happy with this poem. It seemed good when I wrote it, but it hasn't seemed any good since then.

Ben

[Suzanne]

thoke,
this is a very interesting poem. I wish I could go back in time and read it without knowing the title or reading the replies because the words alone paint such a pleasant image. The real issue you state is not pretty or tender. The whole thread discussion is enlightening to read because it shows such diverity in understanding the same string of words. Worth your time to fiddle with, I think. Some great phrasing.

Suzanne

[nar]

Hey, Ben.

I like this, but it did need your explanation.

For me, subjects like this are so tricky that they either need obvious subtle refernces or brutal exposure.

I'm not sure you've hit either, but I applaud your attempt. Esp given your 101 project, and it's limitations.

Kudos.

- Neil

[jack.wolff]

I think this is a tough subject to write a poem about meaningfully, for several reasons. Most of the audience responds to pedophiles and rejects the notion, so the poem, if so open and forward, and riddled with trite cliches, will repulse readers. However, if a unique treatment is given the subject, say a 1st person POV, with a voice, the reader is more likely to read the poem. The trick here, I think, is to create a poem that at first read reads like a love poem, but on subsequent readings, the language is noticed to be menacing, or the object of the poem (the underage love interest for example), is realized to be underage and then an ah-ha moment when the reader realizes that the poem MAY not be the love poem it at first appears to be. Very careful selection of words is needed to pull this off. Lolita, of course, comes to mind, though that is not a poem.

Concerning this poem specifically, I believe it is simply too vague to be read as a poem about pedophilia, without the author's explanation, which has been given. I think that there is the beginning of a voice, a potential voice, a potential character, but it is not developed. Perhaps a character sketch would be helpful here to flesh out the details of the N and possibly the object(s) of her affection? We need the poem to speak. Perhaps the N doesn't couch her pedophilia in beautiful, poetic language. Perhaps the N, being an older woman, has learned to speak directly and concretely about the object(s) of her desires.

I think there are a few interesting things in this poem.

1) what you want to do with those legs,/that new skin -- I find it interesting that perhaps it is the narrator who wants to do something with those legs, or the space between. I also find it interesting that the object's skin is called "new" -- this can't be literal, unless the N sees the object as fresh, young, tender.

2) if we cared/about the ecology of insects,/the garden wouldn’t be in such a mess. -- This begins to suggest a scene to me, perhaps the N's home and how she is preoccupied and therefore her garden is a mess. Literally her garden. I don't believe this is a reference to her sex, though it could be. But then that is not a pretty picture at all. So I believe its a literal garden which suggests the N's preoccupation.

3) I don't really know what the "ecology of insects" means. Ecology is the study of things in their environment...perhaps this suggests that the N is a voyeur watching the young girl(s) in their environment? If so, this again leads me back to say that we have the potential for a 1st person POV poem and a narrator who speaks about the object(s) of her desire. But there just isn't enough here to make that narrator or the situation interesting or memorable or sympathetic.

I know such feedback may not be useful. But it's all I got.

[David]

I know such feedback may not be useful. But it's all I got.

Seems pretty good to me, Jack, but then it's not my poem.

[Susan-Morris3]

I Read your poem with much confusion? the title threw me not good. Then on reading it a few times thought it was a "green," poem. until i read the comments and your explanation, read again but couldn't get my head round what you where trying to say distasteful, repulsive, made very uncomfortable reading, and started to feel the fear of the child in the poem , such lovely words messed up my head, and made me feel nauseous, in other words some subjects just don't work in poetic form, well definitely not for me. I also cant see a difference in a pedophile who rapes a child and a pedophile who finds a child sexually attractive? same thing to me.

[thoke]

I also cant see a difference in a pedophile who rapes a child and a pedophile who finds a child sexually attractive? same thing to me.

Are you suggesting that when I leave my house and see a beautiful woman in the street, I might as well have raped her?

Real rape is obviously worse than fantasy, and if you can't see that then I think you should call the police and turn yourself in.

Ben

[Susan-Morris3]

Of course there is a great deal of difference between the thought of seeing a beautiful woman and the act of rape! But we are not talking of a beautiful woman and having sexual fantasies about her. or for that matter finding a beautiful woman sexually attractive.
You are talking about little girls, children, to find a small child attractive, cute, beautiful, again I can say yes, there are alot of utterly beautiful children in this world. M y objection is when someone finds a little girl sexually attractive, Its when a adult starts to find himself or herself fantasizing about raping a small child a little girl,and although a thought can not hurt a child the way the deed would, I feel any adult who is depraved enough to fantasize about raping a child should at the very least spend a few years in a place that will give the right counseling, and if you cant see that is not a subject to write a poem about. Its very wrong, and offends me deeply,If you can not see the difference in woman/ child and having sexual thoughts. Then I am afraid that it is you who should turn yourself in my friend,

[thoke]

M y objection is when someone finds a little girl sexually attractive, Its when a adult starts to find himself or herself fantasizing about raping a small child a little girl,and although a thought can not hurt a child the way the deed would, I feel any adult who is depraved enough to fantasize about raping a child should at the very least spend a few years in a place that will give the right counseling, and if you cant see that is not a subject to write a poem about. Its very wrong, and offends me deeply,If you can not see the difference in woman/ child and having sexual thoughts. Then I am afraid that it is you who should turn yourself in my friend,

You've missed my point. I'm not saying it's OK to fantasise about raping children. I'm saying that it doesn't even come close to being as bad as actually raping them. You probably agree with this, but your previous post states otherwise, so I want to make sure.

I'm sorry that you are offended, but if people refrained from writing about subjects that might offend people, the history of English Literature would be much duller than it is.

It is rather unfashionable to say this, but: a paedophiles are humans, not aliens. I therefore think it's acceptable to write a poem from the point of view of a paedophile. Would you be equally offended if I wrote a poem from the point of view of another type of criminal/deviant/psychopath (however you want to characterise paedophiles)? Say, a violent schizophrenic person? Is it offensive to explore the thoughts of a violent schizophrenic?

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but we should probably move it to 'any other business'.

Ben

[David]

Hum. Ben, Susan, just thought you should both know that my finger is currently hovering over the Lock Topic button, but you seem to be obeying the Queensberry Rules at the moment, at least.

Remain unheated. Moving to AOB seems like a good idea.