Poetry Forum

Revision 1

How deep this shave of night
whose glassine pool
spills stars
to light a sable sea.

In this frigid hem of night
the wind is still as death
while Winter calls
without remorse
to chill your warm
sweet breath.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Version.

How deep this shave of night,
whose ebon glassine pool
spills chromium stars,
to light an onyx sea.

This frigid hem of night,
the wind is still as death,
while winter calls,
without remorse,
to chill your warm,
sweet breath.

Tamara

Interesting piece. A few suggestions if I may - take or leave, I don't mean to be prescriptive.

The word order in the first line sounds archaic to me - "How deep this" is to my ears a slightly musty formula.

Did you mean "shave of night"? Clearly "shade" would be conventional. I thought you might have intended "shave" as in a sliver or shaving of night; the use of "shave" to mean "a shaving" would be unusual - to my (english) ears it doesn't sound quite right.

"Ebon" also sounds archaic to me - again it may just be my ears.

line 3 - "chromium" nicely continues the precise, almost mineralogical language you've picked up. However, it does have the effect of disrupting the meter you establish in the first two lines (and continue in S2). the first two lines are iambic trimeter (how DEEP this SHAVE of NIGHT) whereas i'd read line 3 as "SPILLS CHROmium STARS" - before you go back to the iambic trimeter for line 4. having recited it to myself a few times i'm not sure whether or not this deviation from the meter works - it might, for emphasis.

S2, line 1: another archaism in my opinion. I take it you're using "This frigid hem of night" to mean "On this frigid hem of night"? Given that you've got "while" in line 3 that's the only grammatically correct meaning I could find. However, you could change "while" to "as" and keep the first line as it is without affecting the grammatical sense - so

This frigid hem of night,
the wind is still as death
as winter calls without remorse
to chill your warm sweet breath.

I like "frigid hem of night" - as it implies you're out on the edge of things - but "still as death" sticks out, for me, as a cliche (along with, perhaps, "without remorse").

Tamara

I prefer s2 to s1 - it has much more commonplace sparser language and so in my mind suits your theme.

Can I suggest the modifiers in s1 are too "poety" - ebon, glassine, chromium, onyx. I think you could use on or maybe two but not so sure about all 4.

elph

dillingworth wrote:

Interesting piece. A few suggestions if I may - take or leave, I don't mean to be prescriptive.

The word order in the first line sounds archaic to me - "How deep this" is to my ears a slightly musty formula.

Did you mean "shave of night"? Clearly "shade" would be conventional. I thought you might have intended "shave" as in a sliver or shaving of night; the use of "shave" to mean "a shaving" would be unusual - to my (english) ears it doesn't sound quite right.

Thank you kindly dillingworth, for the fine critique. I appreciate all the time you've spent.

Perhaps "How deep" is a bit archaic, yet I meant to indicate "depth." The poem was written as it would be seen through my friend's eyes. And depth (deep), indicating the depth of depression my friend would be feeling.

Yes, I meant "shave of night." I wrote this poem for a friend, whose sister died of cancer at a young age. Shave is supposed to indicate if one slices that particular part of night, or shave it, my friend would be sitting in that particular area, beneath the midnight stars, grieving. So, that slice, or that shave of night is what I intended.

"Ebon" also sounds archaic to me - again it may just be my ears.

***Yes, I initially had "sable," but had used it in another poem. There aren't too many words that are synonymous with "black."

line 3 - "chromium" nicely continues the precise, almost mineralogical language you've picked up. However, it does have the effect of disrupting the meter you establish in the first two lines (and continue in S2). the first two lines are iambic trimeter (how DEEP this SHAVE of NIGHT) whereas i'd read line 3 as "SPILLS CHROmium STARS" - before you go back to the iambic trimeter for line 4. having recited it to myself a few times i'm not sure whether or not this deviation from the meter works - it might, for emphasis.

***I wanted "silvery stars," but thought that was archaic, so I used chromium instead. Yet, you are correct with respect to meter. I never intended this to be a rhyming poem, although there is a rhyme in the last verse.

S2, line 1: another archaism in my opinion. I take it you're using "This frigid hem of night" to mean "On this frigid hem of night"? Given that you've got "while" in line 3 that's the only grammatically correct meaning I could find. However, you could change "while" to "as" and keep the first line as it is without affecting the grammatical sense - so

This frigid hem of night,
the wind is still as death
as winter calls without remorse
to chill your warm sweet breath.

***Yes, it's true! I have a tendency to be a bit archaic, but I guess that's just my style. I had "as" initially, but didn't want "as" used twice in the same strophe. I used "while" as a conjunction, and it it synonymous with "though," or "although."

No, I didn't mean "on" this frigid hem. I meant if one were to consider the sky with its stars, as the waistband of a skirt, as an example, the hem would be the earth, where my friend would sit, depressed over the loss of his sister. So, perhaps "in" as opposed to "on."

I like "frigid hem of night" - as it implies you're out on the edge of things - but "still as death" sticks out, for me, as a cliche (along with, perhaps, "without remorse").

***Although my friend's sister died during the night, and it was Winter, there was no wind. I also used Winter as a metaphor for death.

Poetry is always a work in progress, and words are either added, or deleted for the sake of improvement. I thank you for your input.

Best,

Tamara

Elphin wrote:

I prefer s2 to s1 - it has much more commonplace sparser language and so in my mind suits your theme.

Can I suggest the modifiers in s1 are too "poety" - ebon, glassine, chromium, onyx. I think you could use one or maybe two but not so sure about all 4.

Thank you for spending the time to critique my poem.

I must admit, I was certain someone would state, "glassine is treated paper." With constant usage, a word may be accepted with an alternate definition. I am using "glassine" in the poem to show that it is glass-like.

There are only a few synonyms for black and silver. I wanted to show the black sky spilling, or spewing out silver stars. I do see what you mean concerning "poety." I'll work on S1.

I appreciate your effort.

Best,

Tamara

I like the mood you create here, Tamara, although on the micro-level of the words actually used, I'd pretty much go along with what dill and Elph have said already. It does conjure up a very effective middle of the night contemplative atmosphere, though.

Cheers

David

I think this is much better than the original, where it appeared you were trying a little too hard to be "poetic". I like the first verse a lot, nice alliteration and vivid imagery.The second verse is less striking.I find the punctuation throughout a little odd.I'd be for removing commas after stars and calls and I think you require something after "This frigid hem of night.." or else begin the following line with "whose"?

Thats better for me Tamara.

Do you think it could take repitition of words, structure and satanza length. I am thinking s2 becoming something like

How frigid this hem of night
whose wind is still as death,
calls Winter
to chill your warm,
sweet breath.

I think in a short poem the use of techniques can add so much to the few words.

Just a thought

elph

Elphin wrote:satanza length.

Some sort of evil verse?

I think the first verse is much improved, though I'd probably run the last two lines together.

Ros

David wrote:

I like the mood you create here, Tamara, although on the micro-level of the words actually used, I'd pretty much go along with what dill and Elph have said already. It does conjure up a very effective middle of the night contemplative atmosphere, though.

***Thanks for the reply David. I've made an attempt to change it somewhat, and I'm still working on it.

Best,

Tamara

ray miller wrote:

I think this is much better than the original, where it appeared you were trying a little too hard to be "poetic". I like the first verse a lot, nice alliteration and vivid imagery.The second verse is less striking.I find the punctuation throughout a little odd.I'd be for removing commas after stars and calls and I think you require something after "This frigid hem of night.." or else begin the following line with "whose"?

***Thanks Ray. I'll remove the commas.

waistband of a skirt = sky
hem of the skirt = ground
shave of night is a section of the night. Example: If one were to cut a vertical section from sky to ground and he/she were sitting in this section on the ground.

I cannot use "whose" to get the meaning across. I am referring to a specific section of the shave, the lower section, or the ground. Maybe I have to add the word "in." "In this frigid hem of night, the wind is still as death."

Best,

Tamara

Elph wrote:

Thats better for me Tamara.

Do you think it could take repitition of words, structure and satanza length. I am thinking s2 becoming something like

How frigid this hem of night
whose wind is still as death,
calls Winter
to chill your warm,
sweet breath.

I think in a short poem the use of techniques can add so much to the few words.

Just a thought
elph

***I see what you mean Elph, but it is too condensed for me. I'll continue working on it. I think I'll add "In" to L1.

Thanks for your thoughts. I do appreciate them.

Best,

Tamara

" Elphin wrote:satanza length.

Some sort of evil verse?

I think the first verse is much improved, though I'd probably run the last two lines together.

Ros

***Yes, like I had it originally.

I'll change it.

Thanks, Ros.

Best,

Tamara

Tamara Beryl Latham wrote:Revision 1

How deep this shave of night
whose glassine pool
spills stars
to light a sable sea.

This frigid hem of night
where the wind is still as death
while Winter calls
without remorse
to chill your warm
sweet breath.

Hi Tamara,

I believe others will have mentioned that "glassine" is quite the wrong word. Weirdly I think I know exactly what you mean, sort of smooth, dark, almost oily in smoothness? So maybe no problem there...

Where I do have a problem with is is its brevity, you are starting to sketch a scene and then ending before you really get there.

Also, is "lethargy" the right word. Lethargy to me means a warm, indulgent laziness... But this cold winter night you are describing doesn't quite seem to match that. Possibly "torpor"?

HTH

Ian

Ian wrote:

I believe others will have mentioned that "glassine" is quite the wrong word. Weirdly I think I know exactly what you mean, sort of smooth, dark, almost oily in smoothness? So maybe no problem there...

***Ian, I mentioned it myself when I posted the original version. Glassine is treated paper, yet I figure if one uses a word often enough, with an alternate definition, then eventually that definition will be accepted. If you look at glassine paper, you will see there is no sheen on it like glass, but it is rather somewhat dull in appearance. If that paper were black, instead of clear, this would be my description of the sky.

Where I do have a problem with is is its brevity, you are starting to sketch a scene and then ending before you really get there.

***Yes, I deleted some of my adjectives, and now the poem needs some type of revision.

Also, is "lethargy" the right word. Lethargy to me means a warm, indulgent laziness... But this cold winter night you are describing doesn't quite seem to match that. Possibly "torpor"?

***What you state is true, but lethargy is also synonymous with coma, dullness, sleep. I am using lethargy to define "sleep (death), and Nocturnal to define "night."

Thank you for giving your viewpoint. I too realize I will have to add another line or two.

Best,

Tamara

Tamara Beryl Latham wrote:yet I figure if one uses a word often enough, with an alternate definition, then eventually that definition will be accepted.

In that case bellicose means fat.

The Bellman

Hi Tamara,

There is a slight problem with linking "deep" with "shave" in the readers mind IMHO: my original thought was "is that a thick sliver?"(which by definition ought to be thin. ) In view of your replies as to why you chose "deep" I would suggest "bleak" which can imply a black,depressing mood.

I'm not a fan of the "how" constructions. For me
So deep this shave of night;
its glassine pool
spills stars
to light a sable sea.
- would work just as well without the "Shakespearian oration" effect of "how" and "whose".

The poem does create an intense atmosphere, though

Geoff

Hi Tamara
Striking poem, enjoyed reading it.
Revision definitely a big improvement.
But I have to say that I don't see what you gain from having 'glassine' rather than 'glassy'. Your long syllables (whose glass and pool) already slow it down so much that one short one wouldn't be disastrous.
Very atmospheric in any case.
cheers
Helen

Ros wrote:

Tamara Beryl Latham wrote:yet I figure if one uses a word often enough, with an alternate definition, then eventually that definition will be accepted.



In that case bellicose means fat.

The Bellman

***Hey, go for it!

Best,

Tamara

Geoff wrote:

There is a slight problem with linking "deep" with "shave" in the readers mind IMHO: my original thought was "is that a thick sliver?"(which by definition ought to be thin. ) In view of your replies as to why you chose "deep" I would suggest "bleak" which can imply a black,depressing mood.

I'm not a fan of the "how" constructions. For me
So deep this shave of night;
its glassine pool
spills stars
to light a sable sea.
- would work just as well without the "Shakespearian oration" effect of "how" and "whose".

The poem does create an intense atmosphere, though

***Geoff, your suggestion is a good one, and I appreciate your input. I guess I used "deep" to represent the depth of my friend's depression, after the loss of his sister. "So" is a good word, as well, but I prefer "How."

Considering I gave my friend the original version, the revision is an improvement. I'm certain I'll change it again, and currently I'm thinking on all the suggestions.

Thank you Geoff, for taking the time to critique.

Best,

Tamara

Helen wrote:

Striking poem, enjoyed reading it.
Revision definitely a big improvement.
But I have to say that I don't see what you gain from having 'glassine' rather than 'glassy'. Your long syllables (whose glass and pool) already slow it down so much that one short one wouldn't be disastrous.
Very atmospheric in any case.

***Helen, thank you for reading the poem and offering your input. What you state is absolutely correct; yet, for some reason I've grown attached to my made up non-word, "glassine." To my mind it is so much more poetic than the word glass. I changed it once to
"whose mirrored pool spills stars," yet I came back to "glassine."

I thought what you stated, "your long syllables," was funny, and it is very difficult for me to cut words out of a poem because I love adjectives.

Thanks again Helen.

Best,

Tamara