Beyond Words

[emuse]

Stephen Lindstat painting.jpg (56.49 KiB) Viewed 2696 times

Beyond Words

If you could see me. If you could reach
beyond this wall of words, press your palms
through window into white, into the disappearance
of flesh and fire to the afterburn of dreams.
If you could touch me. If you could feel my throat
with your hands, its warmth; my pulse on your palm,
the way colors seek texture, your eyes now deep sockets
in the earth, you would know I am water in those pools.

Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood, the dark moss between stones with gravel.
They unmake the bed of me and you lie in it imagining.
But there are no sheets, there are only winesoaked petals
left in the rain. I say words were built for a deaf God.
Let’s be silent -- blind and fingerless the way love is.
Knowing what goes beyond the visible, the tangible.
It says I am real, its says don’t think. The more we speak,
the more our dialect changes until we barely understand.
We never had to learn a language in the dark.


Painting by Stephen Lindsteadt

[Danté]

I thought the vagueness of some passages in the poem complimented the picture rather well.

"through window into white, into the disappearance" I thought the start of this line felt a little out of sorts, it seems to me that "through window" is not phrased in the same manner as the rest of the poem and felt slightly jarring.

"Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood," I didn't think this worked for me, but I might be missing a broader point.

Overall, I thought it a very floaty kind of read with some very nice textures and tonality mixed with some slightly unnerving images which made this a rewarding read.

Thanks

Danté

[brianedwards]

Ahh, now this is more like it my friend! Ethereal, suggestive, ambivalent --- yes, very nice.

One caveat:

through window into white, into the disappearance
of flesh and fire to the afterburn of dreams.

Yes, you've guessed it; that old bugbear dreams. OK, not only because it's "one of those words" but I actually feel you could focus intent right there and state more directly:

through window into white, into the disappearance of form.

For me, that pulls me into really interesting areas of thought, and furthermore, allows the poem to do what all ekphrasis should: stand independently of the work it references.

I disagree with Tim regarding these lines:

Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood,

Those lines are the crux of the poem for this reader, takes it beyond the musings of the poem's speaker or the painting's subject and into the realms of artistic creation, what it means to create and be created.

Very nice work.

B.

[David]

Hey, e.

I thought the vagueness of some passages in the poem complimented the picture rather well.

I think that's well put by Tim. It expresses something that I felt about the poem. Another way of putting it, of course, is - as Brian has it - ethereal, suggestive, ambivalent . All the same sorts of ideas.

It must be tremendously difficult to make a picture like this into a poem, but I think you've been very successful in your attempt. It's almost Debussy, and that can't be bad.

Cheers

David

[Elphin]

Hi e

Very good - complements the painting.

A few suggestions - they are mainly paring back, leaving the crucial images to shine.

l1 - do you need If you could see me, If you could reach implies so much more distance and fits the painting better as the words are barriers to connection not to seeing IMO.
l4 - agree with Biran re forms rather than dreams

you could feel my throat /with your hands - I would delete the with your hands as its implied by the act of feeling but also by the pulse on your palm

I say words were built for a deaf God - I am not so sure there is any need to introduce God. This poem for me is about connection between people and you go on to explore that concept, god is intruding IMO.

I have a question too about dialect - I feel as if you are searching for another word associated with language but I am not sure that the more we speak the more dialect changes (reinforces maybe). I think you could just say the more our words change - that is closer to the truth of it IMO.

Lots of little nits for you to think on - love the poem

elph

[clarabow]

The problem with writing a poem for a painting is the words can hang together - or not - without the picture? I think you have composed a poem that works with or without. And apart from some nits already mentioned previously, this is filled with imagery and perhaps there is a slightly cliche feel about some of the words/language but for me you have almost produced a classroom poem, if you want to talk/show how the elements, the senses can be worked into a poem. I think you could cull the odd unnecessary words without losing what you have.

Beyond Words

If you could see me. If you could reach
beyond this wall of words, press your palms
through window into white, into the disappearance
of flesh and fire to the afterburn of dreams.
If you could touch me. If you could feel my throat
with your hands, its warmth; my pulse on your palm,
the way colors seek texture, your eyes now deep sockets
in the earth, you would know I am water in those pools.

Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood, the dark moss between stones with gravel.
They unmake the bed of me and you lie in it imagining.
But there are no sheets, there are only winesoaked petals
left in the rain. I say words were built for a deaf God.
Let’s be silent -- blind and fingerless the way love is.
Knowing what goes beyond the visible, the tangible.
It says I am real, its says don’t think. The more we speak,
the more our dialect changes until we barely understand.
We never had to learn a language in the dark.

[emuse]

Thank you all kindly. I like your suggestions for trimming especially yours elph. "With your hands" can go. Will consider the other ideas for changing out words. Dreams is overused but after burn of dreams probably not. Even heart and soul can be used if original though I squirm with words like "thunderous cries" and "bleeding heart", "misty tears" ad nauseum LOL....

Let's see "after burn of form" I see what you're getting at. I like it better. I think there is something softer....hmmm

afterburn of shape
afterburn of thought

it must be one syllable. I'll think on it. Thanks Bri.

Danté, floaty and unnerving is a striking combo. Thank you.

David, Debussy? Nice

Clara you think? I'm glad to know it stands alone. The only test. I'm working on another now. The two together really have am impact. Separate, not as much. Trying to bring the poem up to the standard of the portrait. Will post soon. Perhaps without the portrait first.

Cheers all!

E

[oranggunung]

Hi e

I like this a lot. The words reflect the picture really well.

If anything, I felt some of the images were a little too sharply focused. I like the idea of water in the pools, but am not so sure about the eyes as deep sockets in the earth (a vivid image for me).

In S1, you repeat the use of the word ‘palms’. Would ‘skin’ serve as an alternative in the second instance?


If you could touch me.

There is repetition (or emphasis) here, as others have noted. I’m just wondering if this could turn into an interaction

If you could touch me ... I could touch you (sort of thing)

but with much less direct language, of course.


Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood, the dark moss between stones with gravel.

It’s odd how small words play with my imagination and interpretation. Using ‘the’ before silvery scales causes me concern. I can’t help thinking it’s wrong. I can’t decide if I’d prefer it to be ‘my’ or just not to be there at all? The inexact nature of the statement nags at me.

As someone mentioned recently, a key rule of critting is to suggest the removal of the first or last line. The last line is another one of the images that feels too clear, imho. If you dropped that line, could you then replace ‘our dialect’ with ‘language’ in the previous line, to give a less resolved conclusion?

The more we speak, the more language changes
until we barely understand.

That feels like a strong final statement, though it might not be relevant to the painting.

Just dropping in a few thoughts, hopefully before the revision is complete.


fantastic ekphrastic

og

[emuse]

Hi e

I like this a lot. The words reflect the picture really well.

If anything, I felt some of the images were a little too sharply focused. I like the idea of water in the pools, but am not so sure about the eyes as deep sockets in the earth (a vivid image for me).

Yes that one bothers me a bit too.

In S1, you repeat the use of the word ‘palms’. Would ‘skin’ serve as an alternative in the second instance?

I think hands could substitute in the first instance. Skin wouldn't work in the latter. Thanks for that catch. I don't like to repeat a word unless I intend it so!

If you could touch me.

There is repetition (or emphasis) here, as others have noted. I’m just wondering if this could turn into an interaction

If you could touch me ... I could touch you (sort of thing)

It's a one way flow. The narrator writes of her frustration to be perceived. I think the flow needs to stay directed to allow that to come across.

but with much less direct language, of course.

Words erase me. They replace the silvery scales
with wood, the dark moss between stones with gravel.

It’s odd how small words play with my imagination and interpretation. Using ‘the’ before silvery scales causes me concern. I can’t help thinking it’s wrong. I can’t decide if I’d prefer it to be ‘my’ or just not to be there at all? The inexact nature of the statement nags at me.

Yes that little article can go. I'm not married to it!

As someone mentioned recently, a key rule of critting is to suggest the removal of the first or last line. The last line is another one of the images that feels too clear, imho. If you dropped that line, could you then replace ‘our dialect’ with ‘language’ in the previous line, to give a less resolved conclusion?

You're absolutely correct. Many poems have runways at the beginning that are too long. In the case of the last line, it actually already had a last line which I took off. I like the idea of not having to learn a language in the dark. It leaves the reader with something both sensual and primal (at least for me So I think I'll keep it for now!

The more we speak, the more language changes
until we barely understand.

That feels like a strong final statement, though it might not be relevant to the painting.

Just dropping in a few thoughts, hopefully before the revision is complete.


fantastic ekphrastic

og

Thanks og!! I can implement some of these ideas before it goes into final in September. I appreciate your help on this one.

Cheers!

e

[brianedwards]

Still enjoying this E, look forward to seeing what you do with it.

B.

[Denis Joe]

The problem with this piece is that you have provided an image with it, thus making the poem a commentary on the painting and reducing any poetic value.

Illustrations that accompany a poem are alright for children: it helps them to develop the use of imagination. What we have here is a picture and a commentary on it. Thus it forces the reader into the passive relationship of being informed. It also creates confusion about what it is that should be judged.

As adults we have developed the faculty to create our own images and this is important when we are dealing with poetry (and, perhaps, may explain why it is the least appreciated of the arts and has so much confusion surrounding it) as the use of words are meant to convey images in the same way as a painter uses tints and colours and a musical composer uses scales and notes.

The first half of this poem read like something from an art catalogue. The second part is nearer to poetry.

[emuse]

The problem with this piece is that you have provided an image with it, thus making the poem a commentary on the painting and reducing any poetic value.

Illustrations that accompany a poem are alright for children: it helps them to develop the use of imagination. What we have here is a picture and a commentary on it. Thus it forces the reader into the passive relationship of being informed. It also creates confusion about what it is that should be judged.

As adults we have developed the faculty to create our own images and this is important when we are dealing with poetry (and, perhaps, may explain why it is the least appreciated of the arts and has so much confusion surrounding it) as the use of words are meant to convey images in the same way as a painter uses tints and colours and a musical composer uses scales and notes.

The first half of this poem read like something from an art catalogue. The second part is nearer to poetry.

Hi Denis. I appreciate your evaluation. Are you familiar with the word "ekphrasis". It might be nice to know.

I'm glad you consider the second half as poetic. Cheers and thanks for taking the time!

[Denis Joe]

Hi Denis. I appreciate your evaluation. Are you familiar with the word "ekphrasis". It might be nice to know.
!

That was the word I was looking for at the time.

Looking at what I wrote again, i must apologise for being dismissive. The second stanza works as a poem it is just that I think ekphrasis, like old forms such as the saga, overlook the fact that poetry has moved on from being simply rhetorical tools.

I tend to see poetry as closer to musical composition than literature. I am aware that ekphrasis, ect. served a purpose and that many forms of poetry such as villanelle and sestina, originally had that rhetorical aspect of informing the audience. I'm just not convinced that the approach is valid in these times.

[emuse]

Ekphrasis is more alive than ever. Check Pascale Petit's course at the Tate Modern. Mixed media is all the rage but that's not why I do it. I just personally love it! I belong to a group called Poets on Site. We write from art all the time. There's no rhetoric intended. Simply an experience I had personally in which this particular piece of art helped the poet to articulate. I'm glad to know your thoughts and I quite love the idea of music's relationship to poetry. I feel this kinship too. I find rhythms especially indicative of a poet's "voice." David St. John says a poet controls another's breath. I believe this to be true! Thanks for coming back and sharing your thoughts. I look forward to reading you.