Poetry Forum

I took the skeleton of the poem and entirely changed it. Does it feel more complete now?

Version 3

Ever since Yin and Yang were cast
in the sky

the seagulls have been shagged with indecision
and umbrellas have wandered with open palms to the air.

A confusion faces buildings by the dock,
half orange of the morning sun, half frown.

Cars warm up their windscreen wipers,
perhaps in preparation, perhaps out of boredom,

for lines of them are stationary like palindromes
because of the van at the very front

has it eyes and nose crumpled and anatomised
like soggy, open cardboard –

the tram feels the despot
for only being lightly bruised.

Feet dabble gradually,
some gawping and fascinated

others feeling a right of privacy
violated and shimmying off quickly

for the chiming of the sirens,
viscous clouds.

Parked bikes sigh and
lean.

Their bars, wet from the night before, drop
birds of water:
flying migratory things
that feel guilty through association.


Version 2

Ever since Yin and Yang were cast
in the sky

the seagulls have been shagged
with dawn and black clouds.

A confusion faces buildings by the dock,
half orange of the morning sun, half frown.

Cars warm up their windscreen wipers,
perhaps in preparation, perhaps out of boredom

for lines of them are stationary like palindromes
because of the van at the very front

has it eyes and nose crumpled and anatomised
like soggy, open cardboard –

the tram feels the despot
for only being lightly bruised.

People emerge from doors and shutters,
some gawky mouthed, others upset for the car’s privacy,

but all glancing around, palms up to the air,
judging the oncoming weather

as if they were offering
something to the gods.

Feet dabble slowly,
quicken for the chiming sirens, clouds,

and parked bikes sigh and
lean.

Their bars, wet from the night before, drop
birds of water:
flying migratory things
that feel guilty through association.


Version 1

Ever since Yin and Yang were cast
in the sky

the seagulls have been shagged
with dawn and thick clouds.

A confusion faces buildings by the dock,
half orange of the morning sun, half frown.

Feet dabble quickly,
bikes sigh and lean

and their dew covered bars drop
birds of water,
as if these lingering blobs were perched on a washing line
and flew off

because it was about to rain.

It doesn't really do anything much for me, Dave. I can see where you're going but I think the images fall short -

Ever since Yin and Yang were cast
in the sky

the seagulls have glowed
and looked ridiculous. - It doesn't make a lot of sense - what makes them loook ridiculous?

A confusion cuddles buildings by the dock, - I just don't see how confusion can cuddle. I can see confusion huddling around buildings. Cuddle and confusion just don't seem to go together.

The image of the last six lines is quite sound but I think you need to rephrase -

and their dew covered bars drop
birds of water,
as if these migratory birds were perched on a washing line
and flew off - It just doesn't sound right.

bikes sigh and lean,

the dewdrops on the handlebars leave their perch
like birds from a washing line,
flying off

because it was about to rain

It's definitely your style, but it seems a little rushed, a little confused even.

Barrie

"but it seems a little rushed, a little confused even."

I agree with that, probably why I enjoyed it!

If you can justify Barrie's questions then I applaud you.

Quirky.

Bicycles eh? The preferred mode of transport for the surrealist.

I think confusion can cuddle (though it's somewhat unfortunate and I wouldn't recommend it), but it's a stretch. My take on it is that the pre-rain light from the combination of clear sky and cloud makes the birds glow stupidly and is the confusion on the buildings. If so, it's good for the birds (and a nice irreverance) but not sure the confusion/cuddle/building is refined enough.

The line after - 'half orange of the morning sun, half frown' - is ace and the placement of it in the poems rhythmn is great. I am sent spiralling into memories and evocations.

The rest runs nicely, though I agree with Barrie's helpful suggestion around the drops birding off the handlebars.

Not quite finished, but I like it a lot already.

Hey Dave

Unlike the others, I actually really liked this - although I really do not like S2 at all I'd say just cut it out totally, the poem works without it and if we're supposed to be "getting something" with this couplet then it has failed, afraid to say.

The rest of the poem is good though, and I guess the comments are what you are expecting from the experienced section. Confusion cuddles - I think it does, confusion cuddles all the time and is wrapped up in phrases like "ignorance is bliss" and such like. I liked it and took the same meaning as Globus that the birds on the buildings were causing the confusion.

Feet dabble quickly,
bikes sigh and lean

I loved this line - when I read your stuff I struggle to not link it to your whereabouts. Those Amsterdam bikes chained up to railings next to the canal, on a rainy day, they are sighing . . .

A good start and I think not far off from being finished - such are our relative proclivities! I think Baz is right about S5 though . . . ..

Thanks for the generous comments all. This is more whimsical than my usual stuff, so it was interesting to see how the comments came.

I'll reply to parts, since I think there seems to be a consensus.

Seagulls -

Makes sense. I'll see what I can do with it.

Confusion -

The tone is a bit twee, admittedly, and so I may change it. I may not though, I'm not too sure about that one. But yeah, it'll probably go.

Birds and bike -

Yeah, I've altered it slightly to get rid of the repetition and the slight awkwardness, but I think the present construction is staying. Your edit makes a lot of sense barrie, but the simile like that is a bit too clean for my tastes. I don't think I could finish a poem on a structure like that, it's a bit normal. So, at the risk of alienating the reader, I'm probably gonna leave it like this.

Cheers for the help all
Dave

Dave,

I rather like the quirkiness of this - particularly as I cannot make up my mind whether the bikes are in or our of
the water and whether the "dabbling feet" belong to ducks or people.( I'm hedging toward the latter....)

However, the opening doesn't work for me - the casting of Yin and Yang into the sky made me think of a cosmic, primordial event, rather like saying "ever since the Earth was born", whereas the image is more likely to be simply a device enabling you to pun cast/overcast (Just my take on it)

Geoff

I am quite new to these particular boards, so I am assuming there must be an edit facility - as some of the comments don't seem to match the poem.

As it is - I like it, although it took me a couple of readings to get it.

The positive - I really like the third stanza - the anthropomorphism hints at people moving around early, aware of the imminent weather.
The negative - The last stanza doesn't really work too well for me - I like the dew covered bars, but the last two lines seem like an unnecessary explanation of the first two of that stanza, and don't really conclude the poem for me - although the image of something flying off is generally a conclusion moment, it comes across as much more earthy than the start of the poem.

I'm going to be cheeky and bump this because I've completely reworked the poem.

I won't deny that it is now partly inspired by David's impressive 'Mortality Scene', but also from my experiences this afternoon.

How does it read now? More complete?

I'd really appreciate some thoughts.

Cheers guys
Dave

I still don't like what you've done to those poor seagulls -

the seagulls have been shagged
with dawn and black clouds. - I see what your aim is here but it's a very fuzzy image, iffy even.

Cars warm up their windscreen wipers,
perhaps in preparation, perhaps out of boredom - Second line makes the verse a little 'telly', I think.

Cars warm up their wipers
as windscreens start to mist - just a thought.

gawky mouthed - sounds a bit strange - I tend to associate 'gawky' with 'clumsy', or 'ungainly' - What about gaupy?

others upset for the car’s privacy - I can believe everything else in the poem but this - upset for the car's privacy - Why's that?

Finally (you be glad to hear) -

flying migratory things - how about dropping an adjective - migratory things does just as good a job.

It does sound more complete than the first draught, and it's a well crafted piece but, to me, it's slightly off the boil. There are lines that I can't fault, yet they seem to lack a vibrancy that comes through in your better stuff.

cheers Dave

Barrie

Dave

I missed this first time round. There is a quirkiness of description that I like. In particular the lines

Wabznasm wrote:A confusion faces buildings by the dock,
half orange of the morning sun, half frown

Wabznasm wrote:the tram feels the despot
for only being lightly bruised

Wabznasm wrote:stationary like palindromes

- didn't get this at first but its really grown on me.

A couple of lines I am not so keen on. Firstly,the shagged seagulls, I can see the seabird connection but it just seems out of place. Also the cars privacy is an awkward line.

Wabznasm wrote:Their bars

- should that be a new sentence, I think it might run better from a comma or semi colon at the end of the previous line.

Barrie has mentioned "flying migratory things" - IMO its the things that its out of place, sounds a bit Blackadderish

Hope there is something there

Elphin

Hi!

This is one of those, "Has it improved", well, yes and no.

I didn't mention the shagged seagulls in the first draft - but now it has been extended, it does seem a bit out of place with the rest of the tone of the poem. Somehow in the first draft, it kind of had balance with the rest, but as the rest is a bit less surreal, shagged doesn't work any more.

A confusion faces buildings by the dock,
half orange of the morning sun, half frown.

I'll reiterate Elphin's comment - that is really well written, and for me is the real gem in this poem.

People emerge from doors and shutters,
some gawky mouthed, others upset for the car’s privacy,

but all glancing around, palms up to the air,
judging the oncoming weather

as if they were offering
something to the gods.

There's nothing wrong with this per se, but it just seems to make things a bit too long winded for me. With the tale of the can accident, I don't think you need the people as well, and I would jump to
parked bikes sigh and lean.
Their bars, wet from the night before, drop
birds of water
that feel guilty through association.

I just feel that by doing this the last line is emphasised, whereas with all the added part about the people, it's too far away, and loses impact. Oh, and I'm sorry - I'm not that keen on the flying migratory things either.

I feel a bit guilty - I've probably been a bit more critical on the revision, but I think you have added so much that the balance was significantly altered. But I do think that the added section of the cars queuing and the accident is really good.

Much appreciated guys, thanks.

Barrie -

You're right about gawky.

I'm not quite sure what that vibrancy is, since I don't read my stuff coldly, but cheers for the compliment all the same.

Elph -

I'm glad you liked the palindromes line! That's my favourite bit.

Lexi -

Yes, I see what you mean by the people. I haven't ditched them entirely. Instead I've tried to keep stuff in, but never mention any human being. Sort of like one big anthropomorphic city. How does that work?

All -

Seagulls - They're gone. Well, some of them is gone.

Car's privacy - Made less awkward and slightly more believable.

Thanks for the comments all. They're all very much appreciated.

Dave

Hello Dave,

You have restored the balance on the seagull line for me - others may still have opinions about the wording used, but my issue was the balance, and that's now fine.

I think you've hit the right balance taking the people out, but leaving some bits in.
My only niggle left, is another I hadn't noticed before - so I apologise for that, but the first stanza and general air suggests a degree of timelessness, but then the chiming of the sirens then seems to call us to a single moment in time. I wondered about adding the word "continuous" before the sirens? Something to suggest that this was a repetitive event? Either that or the continual nature of time expressed in the first stanza has to be shortened.

I see you've kept the migratory birds in. So I'm guessing that for you this must be fairly integral.

It is a really good poem, for me, it has a wonderful combination of gritty reality and dreamy timelessness which can be difficult to capture.

Dave, I saw you do the same thing in a previous offering. You're desperately holding on to the core, while in a fit of self-imposed pressure, you're forcing changes upon the rest that just don't work.

Just fuckin' LET GO of the ongoing world of the poem that's playing on repeat in your mind. Let go of the things you want to say and the way you want to say them. Let go of the words and the lines and the phrases that came to you with a smile as you lay in bed or with a frown as you labored through the writing process. Do that, put it all on the back burner for a few days and then start asking the real questions and, if need be, making the real changes.

Go behind the scenes, outside the box, below the surface, whatever, and question the very core that you're unwilling to let go of and the motivations behind it.

Put a new foundation under the fucker! A new coat of paint's not gonna hold her up, man.

Cheers Lexi,

Your crits have been pretty indispensible.

SS,

Ta for the thoughts. I was very aware of the re-write thing, and your crits on that poem were indispensible. I couldn't throw away anything I had written, and dangled onto one or two loose threads.

However, with this I don't think that's applicable. The bits I've kept in this poem are neglible, phrases and little bits don't add much to what, on the most of it, is entirely new. So to be honest, your advice to me just suggests to write another poem. Yeah, I'm going to do lots of that . The big addition to this poem came to me a lot later than the orginal, and it wasn't a case of 'Oh, I'll flesh this out', but more a case of 'Parts of that will say exactly what I want say for this'. This stuff is all here because it does exactly what I want it to, not because I'm forcing it out like sausage meat.

Your crit raises questions of where you pull the line, where do you stop re-writing and where do you start writing something entirely new? I don't want to do the latter under the pretense of the former, so I've kept this as is.

Don't see this as a pretentious little wank defending his work mate, just a valid reply to a valid crit.

Best
Dave

Wabznasm wrote: Don't see this as a pretentious little wank defending his work mate, just a valid reply to a valid crit.

When I feel the need to insert an apologetic disclaimer of my own, there's little chance of me seeing you in that light! Don't worry about it.

I get your reaction to my "advice". But I wasn't telling you to write a new poem so much as I was telling you to do away with a few of the constructs that you've been carrying around with you since day one of this poem's life. And the reason I advised this is because these constructs have carried over to the third revision with little or no improvement.

Perhaps if you went for different images they might come across a little better than the labored ones currently dragging you down.

Just my opinion!

See you on the next one, Dave. Take 'er easy,

Travis

Hi Wabznasm- you know I had to dig deep, and I know that this is a blast from the past but
the image,

“half orange of the morning sun,” just made my breakfast.

-Redpond

Wow, I don't even remember that.

Ta

Howdy Wabznasm,

I’m more of cathexis, synthesis and gestalt- school, where and when I get a gold vein
like half orange of the morning sun, I kick out the uninvited guest, “ half frown,” and then I might just get the nerve enough to ask Victoria S. for a date and enjoy the weekend so I can write a poem about it.

With all the kidding aside, there are in first 5 stanzas great ideas that seems to be not tapped.

Take for instance stationary like palindromes, but you haven’t shown me a palindrome and
believe me I don’t have a brain to know a reality from realty but you do.

For me poetry is not commentary. And of course yours are not but when a tough wind blows it
seems as you want to protect those images with buffers.

For me, as you know, a poem is the experinence. I guess, sometimes, I see in your words something
of a different direction.

keepitflowing,

redpond