Herod's Heirs

[Arian]

if there was a mandate for it.

It would have my vote, anyway (that is, for no distinction - hard to see the point).

Nice poem, Katherine. Regardless of the 'rights and wrongs' of any point it's making, the point is made amusingly and cleverly, with some excellent wordsmithing. Good stuff.

Cheers
peter

[David]

I don't temper my critical comments to Experienced or Beginners. I'm nice to everyone! So just one forum would be my preference. At the Eratosphere they have one for Metrical - two, in fact, with one for extra-cutting critical commentary (which I avoid like the plague - I don't mind getting it, but it bores me witless trying to deliver it to the required level of metrical detail) - and one for Non-Metrical. I think that's a fatuous distinction, but they love their metrics over there.

However, I do reserve the right to be bored or uninterested by anybody's poems, without having to say so. And so should everyone else. If people had to pay a fee to join the forum they could expect a minimum number of comments, as a contractual obligation, but that ain't the case. If you're good enough, and / or likeable enough, people will respond. (No guarantees are given or implied.)

But do we actually combine Experienced and Beginners into one giant gumbo of poetry? I don't mind, but it's quite an upheaval, and one not to be entered into lightly.

[Katherine]

Instead of focussing on a person's experience you could offer a two tiered level of critique.
The forum guidelines more or less do this anyway. So why not simply bring it to the fore?

The idea of having two forums isn't a bad one in my opinion. I remember posting in Mild Critique,
as a new member, at TCP for ages before venturing into the Critique and Revision forum. They used
to have a Heavy Duty Forum which most people avoided. The two most popular forums, by far, were
C&R and Mild Crit. Both were regarded as helpful forums that were open to crit, comment and analysis.

Just a thought for the pot.

Best

JJ

I will never be as well-versed (pardon the pun) in poetry as you, JJ. Because poetry, for me, is a diversion.
There ought to be an 'experienced' forum, where people who know what they're talking about, on a whole different level from me, can post. To say that everyone has to trawl through doggerel, being ever so kind, is not what I'm saying. It would be like Ph.D's having to 'value' GCSE. Whistling a canny tune doesn't make you Mozart!
I'm a 'beginner' and don't feel any shame in proclaiming that, to the world and his wife. Others do.
You're guilty of blasting me with too much information - Please, don't stop, it''ll sink in, eventually, perhaps. I've told you before that you're a hard, but kindly taskmaster. As is everyone, on the 'beginners' board. What's in a name? x

[Katherine]

OK, I've thrown a few toys out of the pram - trope. To describe people as 'Herod', skewering 'babies' - hyperbole -, has set the cat amongst the pigeons - trope.

Mea culpa.

Can we defrost and move on? x

[bodkin]

I agree, it is just we've had the debate before and always failed to reach consensus...

[bodkin]

I agree, it is just we've had the debate before and always failed to reach consensus...

I was agreeing with JJ, Katherine snook in while I was typing...

[Boat]

Hello all.

I've been on holiday so just catching up here and there.

Firstly I'm a 'newbie' and so have first hand experience of being 'new', wink.

On a personal level I like the idea of having Beginners and Experienced forums. Someone stated above the reasons for the divide and I think they are good reasons. When I came here I hadn't a clue about poetry so going into a forum where people were posting stuff as they do in experienced would have put me off.

Secondly I've had no problem as a newbie reading and commenting in the Experienced forum (although I would not post a poem there). I know what I like and even if I can't praise a poem for its great technique (as JJ can) I can praise the ones that sound good to me. My comments might not be of 'experienced' level but in my book any feedback is better than no feedback. They should all be flattered I bothered to read their efforts even if my crit didn't help improve them, lol.
I can learn by reading the Experienced section, they don't have to descend to Beginners to give crit's if they don't want to. Thankfully some of them do.

A point was raised by Ray , I think, about reading some poems and not others. I get his position. Most of us don't have time to read everything posted and so it is natural to 'select' poems from posters you are familiar with and who respond to you. Human nature.

There doesn't seem to be any rule as to where you post. It is up to you therefore to gauge your own level and post appropriately. It's not hard, if you are new post in beginners, if you are an old hand at this post in Experienced, if you aren't sure be humble and post in Beginners and let others tell you to move on up.

I try to respond to posts that are not responded to but sometimes I can't as I really don't get the poem not being responded to. Others might not have responded for the same reason. I also respond to some posters more than others because they post more or because we are in the same Beginners section as myself.

This forum is divine. You said it yourself, Katherine, you love posting here. Ok good, we got that now shut up and continue posting on this divine forum and enjoy the smoke filled comments I intend to bestow upon you ( I intentionally said 'shut up' to kick your bum but don't really mean it).

Save your crits for the poems not the poets.

[Ros]

Thank you, Pat. Spot on, from where I'm standing. I think the more 'experienced' of us have been a bit reluctant to join this thread as it can look as if we're just defending each other, so it's great that someone comparatively new can give their opinion. Those more experienced do value the comments of all, newcomers or not. There's an obligation on us all to comment more than we post, or the place doesn't work, but equally we get to choose who we spend time on. The mods (explicitly) and plenty of other regulars too make a point of commenting in beginners whenever we have the time but we're happy for everyone to comment everywhere. Please don't just stick to one place!

Ros

[bodkin]

Nobody should think their feedback it isn't valuable because it isn't "expert"...

There's two completely different things a poet gets from feedback:

1) technical notes from other people who get what they are trying to do, would be able to do something similar themselves, and hence can offer expert advice

2) revelation of how another human being experienced the poem

The first is nice, often very valuable, can get you going when you are stuck, help you refine your technique...

But the second is what poetry is about! At least as long as you don't write 100% for yourself and "publish" into your desk drawer.

[bodkin]

Also, it's been said before but it stands saying again:

Critique is as valuable to the person giving as to the person receiving. In giving critique we have to read poems in great detail, and engage with them so deeply that we can say, not only what we felt, but also some thoughts on why... This is what trains us to self-critique. e.g. to do the same analysis on our own work, self-edit, and thus start achieving in our early draughts what we previously got only after weeks of discussion and feedback.

Some forums have a rule "don't reply to critique". I see why, it is to forestall arguments of the:

"IT MEANS XXX!
NO IT MEANS YYY!!
XXX!!!
YYY!!!!"-type

-- which are pointless because what it meant to the reader IS what it meant to the reader and no amount of discussion of what it should mean will change that.

However I think that is too strong a rule, because it doesn't allow for critique containing imperfect communication. And if communication was perfect we wouldn't need critique

So we need to reply to critique, we need to discuss it, and get right to the bottom of what the critter meant. With just a few warnings like:

(i) never forget the reader's first impression is the valuable one,
(ii) don't argue,
(iii) and don't try to please everybody--you can't...

Ian

[ManOfWar]

Wright your poems, let other people enjoy them,
Give people that enjoyment of your poems,
Take the good and the bad, it part of life,
Everything you come up against has its pluses and menaces,
Strengths and weaknesses,
Wright your poems

[Katherine]

The cat, among the pigeons, sat.
I've said my piece, so that is that.
I'm either right, or I'm a twat,
But questioning - what's wrong with that?
x

[ManOfWar]

if the hand of reason is held out

why would you attack it like a polar bare,

[TonyMac]

Well that's the way to stir the pot
I must admit to using more than one poetry forum and attitudes vary considerably one from another. Its very nice to feel the cosy arm around the shoulders and the pat on the back. However, I vacillate according to whether I feel the need for some honest criticism or the aforementioned pat on the back.
You have made your point and IMO done it very well.