Before he was born he knew who he was

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emuse
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:57 pm

REVISION 2:

Before he was born he knew who he was

certain that each person he met was a universe
in the world, capable of filling the sky—-
to suspend the stars as a mobile of light so long
as the world agreed. He had a way of bending down
to speak to the sequoias, and they spoke back;
nearly as tall as he, or so they thought. And when he took
flight, the long spread of his wings caused no one
to notice that a man flew in the guise of a hawk.

Today we walked along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap. Cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine and the air is drunk with it. He bends
to pinch a quince in one pocket as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon. There, against the oaks
and russet fringe of chaparral, he opens Whitman
like an old song. It is more than words,
loosed to the eddies of the wind; but the way he reads them,
splitting the ground, moving space around us
for a thousand acres, charging the air until life pulls
from every corner and I have no roots,

as if one needs anchors, clinging like a child to earth.
All things come to him like a feast to the table.
He is neither chimera nor faun, but one who gathers it all
in a silvered web -- mallards skimming across the pond;
fields of wheat just before sunset like bales of cloud
on the earth; the sun sinking into vermillion,
heating up the night, before the deep blue rises.

_______________________

Questions:

1. Do you think I could omit "the way he reads them" and just "show" what the reading of the words does like so:

It is more than words,
loosed to the eddies of the wind;
splitting the ground, moving space around us
for a thousand acres, charging the air until life pulls
from every corner and I have no roots,

Does this work?

2. Also, if there is any extra fluff that you think doesn't belong, something clunky please let me know. Kind thanks.

e

REVISED:

Before he was born he knew who he was

certain that each person he met was a universe
in the world, capable of filling the sky—-
to suspend the stars as a mobile of light so long
as the world agreed. He had a way of bending down
to speak to the sequoias, and they spoke back;
nearly as tall as he, or so they thought. And when he took
flight, the long spread of his wings caused no one
to notice that a man flew in the guise of a hawk.

Today we walked along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap. Cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine and the air is drunk with it. He bends
to pinch a quince in one pocket, the other bulges
with a half-eaten crust as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon.

There, against the black oaks and the russet fringe
of chaparral, he opens Whitman like an old song.
It is more than the words, loosed to the eddies
of the wind
; but the way he reads them, splitting
the ground, moving space around us for a thousand acres,
charging the air until life pulls from every corner
and I have no roots, as if one needs anchors,
clinging like a child to earth.

All things come to him like a feast to the table.
He is neither chimera nor faun, but one who gathers it all
in a silvered web -- mallards skimming across the pond;
fields of wheat just before sunset like bales of cloud
on the earth; the sun sinking into vermillion,
heating up the night, before the deep blue rises.


ORIGINAL:

Before he was born he knew who he was

certain that each person he met was a universe
in the world, capable of filling the sky
with what it will—to suspend the stars
in a mobile of light as long as the world agreed.
He had a way of bending down to speak to the sequoias,
and they spoke back, nearly as tall as he, or so they thought.
And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings
caused no one to look up, no one to notice that a man
flew in the guise of a hawk.

Today he walked with me along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap, cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it. He bends to pinch
a quince in one pocket, the other bulges with a half eaten
crust as we make our way, to where the path curves
to the edge of a small lagoon.

Here, against the black oaks and the russet fringe
of chaparral he opens Whitman like an old song.
It was more than the words, beautiful as they were,
loosed to the eddies of the wind, but the way
he read them, splitting the ground, moving space
out around us for a thousand acres, charging the air
until life pulls from every corner and I have no roots,
as if one might need them, clinging like a child to earth.

All things came to him like a feast at the table.
He was neither chimera nor faun, but one who gathers it all
in a silvered web--mallards skimming across the pond,
fields of wheat just before sunset like bales of cloud
over the earth, the sun sinking into vermillion,
heating up the night, before the deep blue rises.


____________

Will be back later today guys to make comments on your poems. So feel free to hack it up :)

e
Last edited by emuse on Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
Lexilogio
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:30 pm

Hello Emuse,

I don't think I've commented on anything of yours before. Hi.

I like this - it has a thoughtful air to it, and makes you wonder exactly who or what, and yet doesn't answer - which I like.

The first stanza, is good - I'm drawn in, until
"And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings"
It's not the image that I struggle with, it's something in "and when he took to flight" which just doesn't seem to flow that well from the previous line. It's not a meter issue, it could be the repeated "and"?

In the second stanza, I wonder why Early is capitalised? and then winesap as one word?
Then we come to "pinch a quince", the alliteration is good - and I love quince, it makes me think of early times, but I don't like pinch, the alliteration is good, but the mental image just doesn't work for me - it might work for others?

The third stanza is good. I'm not overly convinced by chaparral - but I'm not American, so it's not a natural word for me - it's probably great for a US audience.
Again, the fourth stanza is good - the only thing I don't like is "vermillion", which just seems to lose the sense of rustic idyll.
Lexi
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:08 pm

e

I hesitate to offer thoughts on this because I am not sure I understand who "he" was or is and therefore I am probably missing a great deal. Sometimes I felt he was God or a god, other times a mythical being and other times just a wise old friend. I am going to read it a few times more and work it out. However my ignorance doesn't detract from me enjoying the lyrical beauty. I'll pick a few phrases that I particularly enjoyed.
emuse wrote:He had a way of bending down to speak to the sequoias,
and they spoke back, nearly as tall as he, or so they thought.
emuse wrote:cider tills the air
- what an evocative phrase, I am smelling it as I read
emuse wrote:moving space
out around us for a thousand acres, charging the air
until life pulls from every corner and I have no roots,
as if one might need them, clinging like a child to earth
is a terrific description of not just this but any moving experience.

Parts that didn't work for me:

In line 3 "it" feels like it should be "he". I think it refers to the universe but the way the line reads it feels like a person is being described as it.
emuse wrote:All things came to him like a feast at the table
I kept wanting to read this line as "all things come to him who waits". My problem maybe. The line reads like the feast moves to him but I think you mean he has "all things" i.e. a feast. Maybe its the construction.
emuse wrote:fields of wheat just before sunset like bales of cloud

Is there a contradiction in this description. Reading "fields of wheat" I think of wheat growing in a field and moving in the wind, yet are bales not cut and stacked wheat?

Hope there is at least something here

Elphin
Jack Cloverfield
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:23 pm

I'm going to give this a few more reads before saying anything. Loads of it I like very much, some of it seems lost to me.

Regards
Jack
David
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:49 pm

Some lovely effects, E, but - like Jack - I want this one to age a bit before I uncork it. Just about cider tills the air - it feels (teels) a bit like a typo (a fypo?) to me. I'm wrong, aren't I? But if I am, I don't see why you aren't.

I should just add that I love the third verse. The invocation of Whitman is just right. There's an air of Whitman to the whole thing, a sort of lovable overblown pantheism. In my opinion.

Cheers

David
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Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:16 am

Gidday

I reiterate the plaudits, and the need to allow it to ferment further in my mind.

In acouple of places, the sentences were very difficult/impossible to decipher, however, and I struggled with them, eg.

emuse wrote:Today he walked with me along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap, cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it.
That was the main one. The pantheism in this took me back to the sixties, although I notice there a still a few characters like this stalking the wilds. It was generally all very well expressed and seemed to cut from the impossible to the mundane and back so easily. Well-done.
Cheers
Dave

"And I'm lost, and I'm lost
I'm lost at the bottom of the world
I'm handcuffed to the bishop and the barbershop liar
I'm lost at the bottom of the world
"
[Tom]
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barrie
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Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:48 am

The first verse had me thinking that it was some Indian myth - especially the transformation at the end of the verse. Then it was a shaman. Then a shaman (who reads Whitman?) and a teacher.
I like the nature mysticism of this piece and I like your description of the pantheistic transcendentalist, whoever or whatever he is - but I'm left with a gap, a feeling that something's missing without knowing what it is (Maybe it's just being ignorant as to the real identity of the hawkman - I wish I could put my finger on it.
The writing was your usual descriptive style; sometimes I feel that it's a little overdone, but this time, apart from a short piece, it was spot on. The bit that I didn't particularly go for was -

cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it.
- I thought it was overdone - I know what you're getting at, but this didn't throw up an image as soon as I read it, like I think it should have done - like the rest of the poem did.

I enjoyed the poem though - maybe it's supposed to leave me wondering. Something I do quite a lot of.

Good one

Barrie
emuse
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Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:21 pm

Hi Lexi,

“I like this - it has a thoughtful air to it, and makes you wonder exactly who or what, and yet doesn't answer - which I like.”

I’m glad. I wanted to keep it open ended as long as it doesn’t perplex the reader.
I could remove the “And” at the beginning of that line. Do others agree? Would it help?

In the second stanza, I wonder why Early is capitalised? and then winesap as one word?

Early is capitalized because Early Gold is the name of a type of apple as is Winesap which is one word :)

“Then we come to "pinch a quince", the alliteration is good - and I love quince, it makes me think of early times, but I don't like pinch, the alliteration is good, but the mental image just doesn't work for me - it might work for others?”

Okay. I’ll see how the vote goes.

“The third stanza is good. I'm not overly convinced by chaparral - but I'm not American, so it's not a natural word for me - it's probably great for a US audience.”

When you say “not overly convinced” I’m not sure what you mean. Could you be more specific? Yes chaparral (say it aloud, it sounds beautiful really) is something peculiar to the southern California region though it’s use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaparral.

Again, the fourth stanza is good - the only thing I don't like is "vermillion", which just seems to lose the sense of rustic idyll.

Hm. How about “mango” er uh, any suggestions on a color choice for those firey sunsets?

Thank you Mr. Lexi for looking at my poem. I hope you’ll come back for more comment.

Elphin (I want to call you Alfie but you might not like that ? :)

You say:

I hesitate to offer thoughts on this because I am not sure I understand who "he" was or is and therefore I am probably missing a great deal. Sometimes I felt he was God or a god, other times a mythical being and other times just a wise old friend. I am going to read it a few times more and work it out. However my ignorance doesn't detract from me enjoying the lyrical beauty. I'll pick a few phrases that I particularly enjoyed.

I wonder if one needs to know because in a way you have touched on the truth in all your guesses. I took a workshop from Mathew Sweeney last year who said “it doesn’t matter what your intention was, it’s what’s on the page!” I don’t agree with that notion 100% but I do think that once the poem is let out of the gate, the writer’s intention takes a back seat because the reader then contributes to it what he will. It is up to the poet to make the points clear (or not). I think I like the ambiguity but perhaps it makes the reader feel like they are outside the poem. It is a question. Must the reader have the exact significance of something or can a poem work enough to let the reader’s mind wonder and wander and not get bogged down into the facts (if there are any).

Thank you for telling me what phrases you liked. I’m so pleased. It does help to know what appeals to people as well as what does not.

Parts that didn't work for me:

“In line 3 "it" feels like it should be "he". I think it refers to the universe but the way the line reads it feels like a person is being described as it.”


That is a good question. I think it’s a grammatical one. Should it be “he” and not “it.” I can easily change that.

All things came to him like a feast at the table
I kept wanting to read this line as "all things come to him who waits". My problem maybe. The line reads like the feast moves to him but I think you mean he has "all things" i.e. a feast. Maybe its the construction.”


Hm, how about “all things spread out before him like a feast at the table.” or something like this?

fields of wheat just before sunset like bales of cloud
Is there a contradiction in this description. Reading "fields of wheat" I think of wheat growing in a field and moving in the wind, yet are bales not cut and stacked wheat?

The grasses looked like huge clouds really hovering above the earth. I didn’t want to go with clouds because clouds can get cliched easily. I am going to attach the link at the end of this thread for anyone who wants to see the trip that inspired this poem.

Thanks kindly for all your comments!

Thank you Jack. I’m looking forward to your comments and welcome to Poets Graves.

Hi David!

“Some lovely effects, E, but - like Jack - I want this one to age a bit before I uncork it. Just about cider tills the air - it feels (teels) a bit like a typo (a fypo?) to me. I'm wrong, aren't I? But if I am, I don't see why you aren't.”

It’s intentional. Odd I know, but intentional.

I should just add that I love the third verse. The invocation of Whitman is just right. There's an air of Whitman to the whole thing, a sort of lovable overblown pantheism. In my opinion.

Ah yes! A touch of pantheism and something beyond. I don’t want to tip the author’s spiritual beliefs because it’s not about that, but more the grand nature of a creator, whether they are aligning the stars or crafting a poem. Whitman is the key. The Essential Whitman contains the grand philosophy and perception. But I might say it could be about any poet.

Looking forward to any further thoughts to improve.

Greetings Dave,

“In a couple of places, the sentences were very difficult/impossible to decipher, however, and I struggled with them, eg.

Today he walked with me along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap, cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it.”


I think I am going to break up this sentence like so.

Today he walked with me along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap. Cider tills the air
with something deeper; flesh of the earth fermenting
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it.”

Any ideas on that would be helpful. The main thought is that during this walk the air was so intoxicated(ing) with the smell of apples that were rotting in the ground that it smelled like a winery. It reminded me so much of when I was in Argentina visiting all those wineries—the intensity of the air smelling of wine was heady. That is what I want to convey. As well, the undertone that it was not just the superficial walk but that what the two poets were experiencing together went further than words.

Thanks for the good words.

Barrie,

I like the way you think!

The first verse had me thinking that it was some Indian myth - especially the transformation at the end of the verse. Then it was a shaman. Then a shaman (who reads Whitman?) and a teacher.
I like the nature mysticism of this piece and I like your description of the pantheistic transcendentalist, whoever or whatever he is - but I'm left with a gap, a feeling that something's missing without knowing what it is (Maybe it's just being ignorant as to the real identity of the hawkman - I wish I could put my finger on it.”


I wish you could too. Would it help to have a further hint in the poem. The original title was simply “The Poet” and was dedicated to the person whom I wrote it for. I then decided it could have more universal appeal if I left that out.

The writing was your usual descriptive style; sometimes I feel that it's a little overdone, but this time, apart from a short piece, it was spot on. The bit that I didn't particularly go for was -

cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine so that the air is drunk with it. - I thought it was overdone - I know what you're getting at, but this didn't throw up an image as soon as I read it, like I think it should have done - like the rest of the poem did.”


I’m working on that section. Please see my notes above. How can I make this section clearer?

Thanks for stopping by.

E
emuse
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Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:24 pm

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Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:45 pm

E,

I've come to this one rather late. Many sorries.

First of all, the revision is better. Nice one.

Some of my usual crap about tone, voice, rhythm, etc:

The opening is a bit too murky I reckon. There'stoomuchgoingoninaveryshortspaceoftime. I got to 'universe' and thought 'Yes, that's a great opener', but to my dismay it went on and the power was lost. A suggestion:

certain that each person he met was a universe,
each capable of filling the sky—-


I've added the repetition for pace and punch.

"as the world agreed." - I'm not too sure this is needed. Again, it clogs up the beginning a bit too much. Saying that though, it has that abruptness of Whitman, so perhaps it is OK.

My reworking:

moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine, and the air is drunk with it.

the other bulges
with a half-eaten crust as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon.
- I like the quotidian here, but don't think it necessary. I would suggest erasing that little detail and just have the N and company making their way to the lagoon. Plus, I've been told many times that pockets 'bulge' and when they do bulge, it's not often with a half-eaten crust. How big is the sandwich?

russet fringe
of chaparral, - I'm not sure if you need 'russet'. Too many adjectives? Too overwhelming?


charging the air until life pulls from every corner
and I have no roots, as if one needs anchors,
clinging like a child to earth.

I thought this was great and typically you. However, the irony in 'as if... earth' isn't fully transported because of what it follows. It's a wry jibe at the human desire for roots right?If so, I would suggest giving it its own stanza, for clarity and style:

It is more than the words, loosed to the eddies
of the wind; but the way he reads them, splitting
the ground, moving space around us for a thousand acres,
charging the air until life pulls from every corner
and I have no roots,

[tab]as if one needs anchors,[/tab]
clinging like a child to earth.

All things...


As for the poem itself, I like it. It's a good take on transcendentalism, and I think it still seems pertinent and not trite like some of the Whitman inspired stuff people write today is like.

I hope that all helps
Dave
emuse
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Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:18 am

Your crits are always worth waiting for. Very helpful indeed. Some questions and thoughts:

First of all, the revision is better. Nice one.

Thanks.

The opening is a bit too murky I reckon. There'stoomuchgoingoninaveryshortspaceoftime. I got to 'universe' and thought 'Yes, that's a great opener', but to my dismay it went on and the power was lost. A suggestion:

certain that each person he met was a universe,
each capable of filling the sky—-

I've added the repetition for pace and punch.

"as the world agreed." - I'm not too sure this is needed. Again, it clogs up the beginning a bit too much. Saying that though, it has that abruptness of Whitman, so perhaps it is OK.

Let me think on that. The bit about the world agreeing has to do with a more metaphysical viewpoint. There are various philosophies that speak to it, the idea that the material universe exists based on the agreement that it exists.

My reworking:

moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine, and the air is drunk with it.

I love that! Perfect and I took it.

the other bulges
with a half-eaten crust as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon. - I like the quotidian here, but don't think it necessary. I would suggest erasing that little detail and just have the N and company making their way to the lagoon. Plus, I've been told many times that pockets 'bulge' and when they do bulge, it's not often with a half-eaten crust. How big is the sandwich?

Ha ha. Yeah I thought of that. Hm. Well I took out the crust but I worry when I prune too much that it begins to go flat. Please have another look when you can and tell me if it needs something.

russet fringe
of chaparral, - I'm not sure if you need 'russet'. Too many adjectives? Too overwhelming?

I like russet fringe but perhaps the line is heavy because we have black oaks and russet fringe? I could just go for the oaks.

charging the air until life pulls from every corner
and I have no roots, as if one needs anchors,
clinging like a child to earth.

I thought this was great and typically you. However, the irony in 'as if... earth' isn't fully transported because of what it follows. It's a wry jibe at the human desire for roots right?If so, I would suggest giving it its own stanza, for clarity and style:

It is more than the words, loosed to the eddies
of the wind; but the way he reads them, splitting
the ground, moving space around us for a thousand acres,
charging the air until life pulls from every corner
and I have no roots,

Okay let me give that a go.

as if one needs anchors,
clinging like a child to earth.

All things...

As for the poem itself, I like it. It's a good take on transcendentalism, and I think it still seems pertinent and not trite like some of the Whitman inspired stuff people write today is like.

That's a relief. Whitman was certainly a Romantic. I strive to combine a sense of this with contemporary ideas. Hopefully it works once in awhile. Thanks for your thoughts. Always appreciated. I'll put in some new stanza breaks now and report another version.

e
Lexilogio
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Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:01 am

Hello emuse,

The rewrite is good - there seems to be a real sense of romance through the poem now, which I didn't pick up on the first time.

The first stanza I feel is improved - I had mentioned an issue originally where it had read
And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings
But the re write has eliminated this - and I feel that it now flows really well.

You asked some questions:
Personally I don't think you should lose "the way he reads them", for me that is one of the phrases which carry the sense of romance across the poem, because it contains an air of admiration.

I am particularly impressed the way the second stanza goes into the third, with the talk of "anchor" that works very well.
Lexi
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Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:20 pm

e

Good revision. As to your questions, I have gone back and forth on "the way he reads them" and honestly in or out it works.

I still find the "feast at a table" clunky but nobody else does so maybe just me. I think spread before him is better.

Anyway this has sparked an interest in reading Whitman so thanks for that.

Elphin/Alfie whatever
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Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:52 am

emuse -

I have read a few of your poems, going from your Charcoal Garden till this one. It seems to me that there are very few who can keep up a standard of quality in posted work in general, as you manage to do it. There are a lot of people on this board who have written spectacular things, but, can't seem to keep the energy high. Even when looking at the body of work of big names, one has to admit that the majority of the work is somewhere between "good" and "great" - but not even close to always amazing.

Concerning your two questions, I'll say that just after I read the poem I didn't have either of those two questions on my mind. There was nothing clunky and I don't see any reason at all to omit the italycized section from the man. I thought it was funny that someone else attributed your use of chaparrel to being American, I had the same initial trouble with it but I have come to really like the word.

As to what the poem is actually about, I have a little bit of trouble. I think I know of the kind of person you are talking about, who always seems to hit people where they are at. Is this about a lover, friend? Jeremiah 1:5 : "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, befoer you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to all the nations." At the same time, the allusions to angel/god like qualities of transforming and whatnot leave me a bit puzzled as to who this is supposed to describe exactly.

Caleb
"Don't treat your common sense like an umbrella. When you come into a room to philosophize, don't leave it outside, but bring it in with you." Wittgenstein
David
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Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:02 pm

Caleb is right, e, this is high quality stuff. In case it's any use, here's where I am with it at the moment.

You know, I'm getting a whiff of megalomania from the opening. That may not be untrue to Whitman, but it casts a shadow over the poem for me. Do you see that at all, or is it just me?

Cider tills the air - I dunno, it still doesn't make sense to me. It's not just that it's surprising (although it is) or daring (although it is) or bold (although it is) - it just doesn't convey meaning to me.

Lagoon is interesting. Without knowing the actual geography, it seems a surprising word, but effective.

Chaparral - I love chaparral (without actually knowing what it is).

he opens Whitman like an old song - that simile seems a little weak, a little sentimental, most unlike you, but you know the effect you're going for.

I'm not sure but follows more than - more than asks for it is. To go on with but, I think you need to set it up with it is not.

The final verse is just terrific.

I have to say, though, that at the end I still don't know who he was - whose failure is that? Mine or yours? Ah, mine, probably. Tis a very good poem.

Cheers

David
emuse
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:03 am

Lexilogio wrote:Hello emuse,

The rewrite is good - there seems to be a real sense of romance through the poem now, which I didn't pick up on the first time.

Thanks!

The first stanza I feel is improved - I had mentioned an issue originally where it had read
And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings
But the re write has eliminated this - and I feel that it now flows really well.

Glad to hear it.

You asked some questions:
Personally I don't think you should lose "the way he reads them", for me that is one of the phrases which carry the sense of romance across the poem, because it contains an air of admiration.

Yes that's true. Your reasoning is essential to my decision to keep it in. It stays.

I am particularly impressed the way the second stanza goes into the third, with the talk of "anchor" that works very well.
Cool! Someone gave me the "anchor" idea and I took it. I'm glad it works.

Appreciate you coming back and having another read Lexi,

e
emuse
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:21 am

pseud wrote:emuse -

I have read a few of your poems, going from your Charcoal Garden till this one. It seems to me that there are very few who can keep up a standard of quality in posted work in general, as you manage to do it. There are a lot of people on this board who have written spectacular things, but, can't seem to keep the energy high. Even when looking at the body of work of big names, one has to admit that the majority of the work is somewhere between "good" and "great" - but not even close to always amazing.

Caleb, your words give me confidence. Something that ebbs and flows in every poet I suppose. But you never see my clunkers LOL. Honestly, your comment is something I will print and read when my critic gets loud. It means a great deal.

Concerning your two questions, I'll say that just after I read the poem I didn't have either of those two questions on my mind. There was nothing clunky and I don't see any reason at all to omit the italycized section from the man. I thought it was funny that someone else attributed your use of chaparrel to being American, I had the same initial trouble with it but I have come to really like the word.

I was saying this word aloud and thought that if someone went for a phonetic pronunciation they might hear chap (rhymes with map) er awl when in fact it is pronounced shaperall which I think sounds quite lovely. Though the word brings to mind certain landscapes (especially in my region) tis true, it can exist in any place where conditions warrant it. Sometimes we resist words and then gain affinity for them once we have a little more understanding of the word. At least that happens for me.

As to what the poem is actually about, I have a little bit of trouble. I think I know of the kind of person you are talking about, who always seems to hit people where they are at. Is this about a lover, friend? Jeremiah 1:5 : "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, befoer you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to all the nations." At the same time, the allusions to angel/god like qualities of transforming and whatnot leave me a bit puzzled as to who this is supposed to describe exactly.

Whoa what a quote. That's quite something. Are you familiar with Rainer Maria Rilke's "Book of Hours"? They are known as love poems to God. If one reads them, they might think they were written to a lover unless understood in context. They're incredible works by the way, highly recommended. I think love of anything can be based on a sort of reverance. The narrator of the poem has a certain reverance for the subject just as the subject has a reverance for mankind. Ultimately, a being infuses the world with his creations. And what does a poet do? He takes nothing and turns it into something, or takes something, and turns it into something more. It's an alchemy of words perhaps. When you say you have trouble it makes me wonder whether I am not letting the reader in enough and yet sometimes a subject is anyone whom the reader wishes them to be. I am in no way finished with a poem (at least certain ones) until I feel the essential feeling has been transferred to the reader. Does each significance need to be known? Not sure. But I will continue to tinker with this until it has the desire effect. Thanks for your good words. All of them!

I am thinking on your question about the subject of the poem and whether it needs clarification.

Caleb
______________

An interesting note on the word chaparral:

Chaps are sturdy leather coverings for the legs, consisting of leggings and a belt. They are buckled on over trousers with the chaps' integrated belt, but unlike trousers they have no seat and are not joined at the crotch. They are designed to provide protection for the legs and are usually made of leather or a leather-like material. They are most commonly associated with cowboy culture of the American west, as a protective garment to be used when riding a horse through brushy terrain.

The word is recorded in English since 1844, as an abbreviation of the Mexican or Spanish words chaparajos or chaparreras. Words with similar roots include chaparro or chaparral, the evergreen scrub vegetation that can tear at a rider's legs and gave rise to the need for chaps.[1][2]

The traditional pronunciation of the word chaps, when referring to this garment, is with a "sh" sound (IPA [ʃ], as in shave), rather than "ch" (IPA [tʃ], as in chime).[3][4][5][6] This reflects the similar pronunciation of chaparral.[7][8] The authentic pronunciation by both the working and rodeo cowboy of the American West is "shaps."[9][10][11][12][13] However, the word is sometimes pronounced with a "ch" sound, to the point that it has become a recognized form in some dictionaries.[14][15] When pronounced with a hard "ch", it is indicative that the speaker is clearly not from the American west.[16]
emuse
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:35 am

David wrote:Caleb is right, e, this is high quality stuff. In case it's any use, here's where I am with it at the moment.

Thanks David.

You know, I'm getting a whiff of megalomania from the opening. That may not be untrue to Whitman, but it casts a shadow over the poem for me. Do you see that at all, or is it just me?

It's an interesting question. Some of the poets that have made their mark have thought big. They were not limited by the concerns of their immediate culture. Whitman's Song of Myself was to me, a protest against all the puritan mores in which he found himself. I look at writers who rebelled against the idea of Man being small or suppressed in some fashion (Ayn Rand) and others. Many poets tend to trump the underdog. I'm probably the opposite (though not always!). It is unseemly in our culture to be boastful or life giving. It can even seem offensive. I disagree. Take that as you will :)

Cider tills the air - I dunno, it still doesn't make sense to me. It's not just that it's surprising (although it is) or daring (although it is) or bold (although it is) - it just doesn't convey meaning to me.

Okieeee. Well I'm on the fence there because you and one other questioned it and then there was another who thought it was wonderful. So, I can't quite decide. I like to use odd verbs and nouns.

Lagoon is interesting. Without knowing the actual geography, it seems a surprising word, but effective.

Chaparral - I love chaparral (without actually knowing what it is).

Cool.

he opens Whitman like an old song - that simile seems a little weak, a little sentimental, most unlike you, but you know the effect you're going for.

I've gotten the most compliments on that one. Again, not easy to say. I know what you mean but it is a bit of a play on "Song of Myself" and so...

You've got me thinking really. It may be a darling I need to kick out. I'll keep it until something better shows up.

I'm not sure but follows more than - more than asks for it is. To go on with but, I think you need to set it up with it is not.

I don't follow this one :?:

The final verse is just terrific.

Thanks. I like it too.

I have to say, though, that at the end I still don't know who he was - whose failure is that? Mine or yours? Ah, mine, probably. Tis a very good poem.

Well that's three of you saying you don't know who he is. I guess my question back to you is do you need to know? If so, perhaps there is more to be said.

Thanks mucho.

e

David
Lexilogio
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Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:57 pm

I don't think we need to know who he is - I like the idea that we can put our own ideas into it.
Lexi
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Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:44 pm

Hi, Emuse, I haven’t commented on your work before. I don’t feel I can add much to what has been already said by the reviewers. I feel I am not qualified enough as your poem is out of my depth. I know that I like it very much for its imagery and originality. I don’t fully understand it and would hate to mess with it but I’ll take a stab at it to get the crits in before I post any more poems.

First, the title is excellent. Titles are so important, I know I don’t put enough effort into them myself but this is excellent. Title should be in Caps by the way. i.e.
Before He Was Born He Knew Who He Was, this shows that it is a title, and you are right not to use a period at the end.
Lex. Said:
["And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings"
It's not the image that I struggle with, it's something in "and when he took to flight" which just doesn't seem to flow that well from the previous line. It's not a meter issue, it could be the repeated "and"?] I tend to agree with him here, something could be changed to improve this.
Someone commented that they thought it was a love poem to God, and I tend to agree; only that God was never born and has always existed before time. And would God read Whitman but then the Son of Man read and would probably enjoy Whitman, I don’t think it’s sacrilege to say that. So I could easily go along with that option only God would not ask man to agree about the stars being mobiles in the heavens, He would just place them there, and He has put them there- they are to us heavenly mobiles in holy procession. And I enjoyed that first paragraph or scansion.

I hate to tinker here but: ‘the long spread of his wings caused no one
to notice that a man flew in the guise of a hawk.’ Could it be improved by: ‘The long spread of his wings caused men to look and see the Son of Man as a hawk.’ But it’s your poem and you have to decide.

Psued said that he thought it was about God and quoted the Bible and that certainly worked for me. God knew man in the innermost parts in the womb before they were fully knit, only God was never born. I also like the picture of two men walking along the road conversing rather like the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus.

‘Today we walked along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap. Cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine and the air is drunk with it. He bends
to pinch a quince in one pocket, the other bulges
with a half-eaten crust as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon.’

Suggestion: because you are speaking about a specific place I think it would be better to use ‘The dirt road’ rather than ‘a dirt road’, and ‘the lagoon’ rather than ‘a lagoon’. And use the plural for Winsap as you are speaking of apples.

I loved the word chaparral which places the poem at a specific area, a country, and type of landscape made even more special by a specific word to describe it, lovely American word-chaparral.

For the rest of the poem, I loved it. I soaked in its richness, its descriptive passages and moods and colours. I fell in love using my the senses and found rest and languished there in my soul and smelled the cider on the ambrosiac air to refresh my spirit and met with God.

Knowingly or unknowingly, you allude to scripture as in the 23 psalm, ‘All things come to him like a feast to the table.’

But you make us search Him out and as such it is a clichéd saying but so true to take a voyage of discovery with you.

Finally if it can be improved then improve it, leave it aside for a year and then read it again and you decide.

regards

ioan
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Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:00 am

Yes, that's my only argument, I too felt I was being set on the right path.
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Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:33 am

This is great – pure and utter… Whitman – no more and no less…

Here are 2 of his quotes, which for me embody this great poem…

Quote 1: ¨There is no god more divine than yourself¨

This quote (1) sums up the whole of the first stanza (in my opinion)….

Quote 2:

¨I think I could turn and live with animals,
They are so placid and self-contained,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God.¨


Quote 2 is from Song Of Myself…..and really sums up the whole poem….

Great stuff…
emuse
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:02 pm

ioansant wrote:Hi, Emuse, I haven’t commented on your work before. I don’t feel I can add much to what has been already said by the reviewers. I feel I am not qualified enough as your poem is out of my depth. I know that I like it very much for its imagery and originality. I don’t fully understand it and would hate to mess with it but I’ll take a stab at it to get the crits in before I post any more poems.

hi ioan,

Anyone who has an interest in poetry and an opinion is qualified to comment in my mind. In fact, there's an advantage because I believes sometimes less is more; more honest, more free to express ideas and opinions without the restraint of "knowledge". At the end of the day it's whether the reader has been moved by a poem in some way and what impression it leaves on the mind.


First, the title is excellent. Titles are so important, I know I don’t put enough effort into them myself but this is excellent. Title should be in Caps by the way. i.e.
Before He Was Born He Knew Who He Was, this shows that it is a title, and you are right not to use a period at the end.

Thanks for your thoughts on the title. I'm glad you like it. Titles can sometimes be in caps but don't have to be. I see that you have a preference for it and it is noted.

Lex. Said:
["And when he took to flight, the long spread of his wings"
It's not the image that I struggle with, it's something in "and when he took to flight" which just doesn't seem to flow that well from the previous line. It's not a meter issue, it could be the repeated "and"?] I tend to agree with him here, something could be changed to improve this.

I can omit the "and" if it poses a problem. Let me try that!

Someone commented that they thought it was a love poem to God, and I tend to agree; only that God was never born and has always existed before time. And would God read Whitman but then the Son of Man read and would probably enjoy Whitman, I don’t think it’s sacrilege to say that. So I could easily go along with that option only God would not ask man to agree about the stars being mobiles in the heavens, He would just place them there, and He has put them there- they are to us heavenly mobiles in holy procession. And I enjoyed that first paragraph or scansion.

The pleasure for me is in your interpretation. I have heard it said that once a poem is give to the reader, it is no longer yours. That is, it is left open to interpretation and may or may not keep the writer's intent. I don't think it's important what I had in mind. I think it's more important that the reader find something in it that has meaning for them.

I hate to tinker here but: ‘the long spread of his wings caused no one
to notice that a man flew in the guise of a hawk.’ Could it be improved by: ‘The long spread of his wings caused men to look and see the Son of Man as a hawk.’ But it’s your poem and you have to decide.

The point is not to identify who this person is. "Son of Man" puts a definite label on the subject which the narrator does not intend to do. :)

Psued said that he thought it was about God and quoted the Bible and that certainly worked for me. God knew man in the innermost parts in the womb before they were fully knit, only God was never born. I also like the picture of two men walking along the road conversing rather like the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Yes there is a reverance between the two and a spiritual kinship. I like what you seen in this and am happy it brought these images forward.

‘Today we walked along a dirt road, past the Early
Golds and the dusky Winesap. Cider tills the air
with something deeper, moist flesh of earth ferments
apple to wine and the air is drunk with it. He bends
to pinch a quince in one pocket, the other bulges
with a half-eaten crust as we make our way
to the edge of a lagoon.’

Suggestion: because you are speaking about a specific place I think it would be better to use ‘The dirt road’ rather than ‘a dirt road’, and ‘the lagoon’ rather than ‘a lagoon’. And use the plural for Winsap as you are speaking of apples.

Yes those are very good suggestions. Taken!

I loved the word chaparral which places the poem at a specific area, a country, and type of landscape made even more special by a specific word to describe it, lovely American word-chaparral.

For the rest of the poem, I loved it. I soaked in its richness, its descriptive passages and moods and colours. I fell in love using my the senses and found rest and languished there in my soul and smelled the cider on the ambrosiac air to refresh my spirit and met with God.

That's beautiful!

Knowingly or unknowingly, you allude to scripture as in the 23 psalm, ‘All things come to him like a feast to the table.’

I love how you made that connection. I can see the link.

But you make us search Him out and as such it is a clichéd saying but so true to take a voyage of discovery with you.

Finally if it can be improved then improve it, leave it aside for a year and then read it again and you decide.

regards

ioan
Thanks for weighing in ioan. Your views and inspiration are great.

e
emuse
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:04 pm

Minstrel wrote:Yes, that's my only argument, I too felt I was being set on the right path.
Hi Minstrel!

Did you mean that you felt you were brought to a cognitive state? Oh er fed an epiphany? Not sure what you mean.

e
emuse
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:09 pm

[quote="Merlin"]This is great – pure and utter… Whitman – no more and no less…

Here are 2 of his quotes, which for me embody this great poem…

Quote 1: ¨There is no god more divine than yourself¨

Merlin :idea: you know your Whitman and you see far into the poem's essence.

This quote (1) sums up the whole of the first stanza (in my opinion)….

Quote 2:

¨I think I could turn and live with animals,
They are so placid and self-contained,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God.¨


Quote 2 is from Song Of Myself…..and really sums up the whole poem….

Yes the subject of the poem was reading Song of Myself. I am still making my way through Essential Whitman and loving it. Whitman was a huge spirit and believed not only in the existence of a supreme being but in the supremity of the individual...

I thank you for reading and seeing.

e
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