REVISION
On Sundays, I attended with him. Mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely.
We would hum the hymns under our breath,
lip-sync the psalms and consider music
exclusive - for we were both tone deaf -
a medium for the ladies with high hats;
beneath which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but sometimes B flat.
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer
and so after dad departed, at the kirk door
I shook the minister
by his hand, outstretched before us
and declaimed A Man’s A Man for A’ That
to quiet the Hallelujah chorus.
A Man’s A Man for A’ That – Robert Burns
Note A’ translates as all
ORIGINAL
On Sundays, I attended with him. Mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely.
We would hum the hymns under our breath,
lip-sync the psalms and consider the music
(we were both tone deaf)
an exclusive medium for ladies with high hats;
under which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but the occasional B flat.
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer.
So when he departed, at the kirk door
I shook the minister
by his hand, outstretched before us
before reciting A Man’s A Man for A’ That
to quiet the Hallelujah chorus.
Original first line - minor edit for now, a couple more things to be attended to
On Sundays, with him, I attended, mostly
On Sundays
Elphin
I like the atmosphere of this poem. I have to admit, the hat stanza is worded in such a way another word sprang to mind before I managed to assimilate hat.
My only pedantic ponderance is the use of "B flat" I am assuming that you are using it dual purpose and rhyming it further down. A, C flat is a B on a piano, B flat is a whole tone down.
A, B would be flatter than flat, or eleven semitones up. A, flat B perhaps?
Just a thought.
Enjoyable read
Many thanks
Tim
I like the atmosphere of this poem. I have to admit, the hat stanza is worded in such a way another word sprang to mind before I managed to assimilate hat.
My only pedantic ponderance is the use of "B flat" I am assuming that you are using it dual purpose and rhyming it further down. A, C flat is a B on a piano, B flat is a whole tone down.
A, B would be flatter than flat, or eleven semitones up. A, flat B perhaps?
Just a thought.
Enjoyable read
Many thanks
Tim
to anticipate touching what is unseen seems far more interesting than seeing what the hand can not touch
As Tim said, the atmosphere's good - sounds like the Methodist chapel that I was forced to attend.
I'm not happy with the opening lines, they come over cluttered and I'm none too sure what you're trying to say.
On Sundays, with him, I attended, mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely.
with him - Who's this mysterious figure?
On Sundays, with him, I attended.....I have a problem with the syntax here - unless it's a local thing.
On Sundays, with him, I attended, mostly we sat in the same spot. Is a comma enough of a pause after 'attended'? The whole sentence just doesn't sound right to me.
Again, i was slightly confused with V4 -
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer
so when he departed, at the kirk door,
I shook the minister.....
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer so when he departed..... I found it a little difficult to understand what was going on here - another mysterious figure. Was this 'he' the same person as 'him' in V1. I decided that it wasn't. I took it to mean that because you enjoyed the minister's prayer recital, after the sevice was over you followed the man to the door and shook his hand.
an exclusive medium for the ladies with high hats;
under which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but the occasional B flat. - I liked this verse. I remember them well. Maybe you could manage a complete rhyme with 'hats' -
a surprising top C with occasional flats.
I liked the finish - Burns
Am I being over-picky here, or what? I quite like it, although it probably doesn't sound like I do.
cheers
Barrie
A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.
I'm not happy with the opening lines, they come over cluttered and I'm none too sure what you're trying to say.
On Sundays, with him, I attended, mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely.
with him - Who's this mysterious figure?
On Sundays, with him, I attended.....I have a problem with the syntax here - unless it's a local thing.
On Sundays, with him, I attended, mostly we sat in the same spot. Is a comma enough of a pause after 'attended'? The whole sentence just doesn't sound right to me.
Again, i was slightly confused with V4 -
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer
so when he departed, at the kirk door,
I shook the minister.....
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer so when he departed..... I found it a little difficult to understand what was going on here - another mysterious figure. Was this 'he' the same person as 'him' in V1. I decided that it wasn't. I took it to mean that because you enjoyed the minister's prayer recital, after the sevice was over you followed the man to the door and shook his hand.
an exclusive medium for the ladies with high hats;
under which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but the occasional B flat. - I liked this verse. I remember them well. Maybe you could manage a complete rhyme with 'hats' -
a surprising top C with occasional flats.
I liked the finish - Burns
Am I being over-picky here, or what? I quite like it, although it probably doesn't sound like I do.
cheers
Barrie
A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.
After letting go of branches and walking through the ape gait, we managed to grasp what hands were really for......
Elph
I like the deliciously wry sense of humour that runs through this poem, which peaks impressively in the last verse. Your line break at
Your scene-setting first verse, however, reads rather awkwardly to me. Also, like Barrie, I'm left wondering who the other person is and why you felt it necessary to mention him at all? Especially as he seems to contribute nothing meaningful to the content of the poem. Have I missed something here? It wouldn't be the first time!
I've played around with your opening verse. Hope you don't mind.
In Sunday best we sat towards
the back on weathered stalls
to perch upon the misericords
Cheers
I like the deliciously wry sense of humour that runs through this poem, which peaks impressively in the last verse. Your line break at
is also used to very good comic effect.Elphin wrote: shook the minister
by his hand
Your scene-setting first verse, however, reads rather awkwardly to me. Also, like Barrie, I'm left wondering who the other person is and why you felt it necessary to mention him at all? Especially as he seems to contribute nothing meaningful to the content of the poem. Have I missed something here? It wouldn't be the first time!
I've played around with your opening verse. Hope you don't mind.
In Sunday best we sat towards
the back on weathered stalls
to perch upon the misericords
Cheers
"This is going to be a damn masterpiece, when I finish dis..." - Poeterry
Strangely enough, Elph, it seems blindingly obvious to me that "he" is your father, but I've nothing to base that on, so I'm quite possibly wrong.
I agree that it's a bit of a hiccupy start - too many commas.
Is there a reason why (we were both tone deaf) is a shorter line? (And I shook the minister?) Not that they aren't effective like that.
I like, as a musical phrase, the rather wordy weekly prayer , and it's a very very nice final stanza.
Cheers
David
I agree that it's a bit of a hiccupy start - too many commas.
Is there a reason why (we were both tone deaf) is a shorter line? (And I shook the minister?) Not that they aren't effective like that.
I like, as a musical phrase, the rather wordy weekly prayer , and it's a very very nice final stanza.
Cheers
David
Cheers chaps and thanks all.
Tim - my lack of musical knowledge shown up. That line is on the refurb list.
Barrie - fair point re l1 syntax, a little edit done for now. I'll tidy up the "he's" too, to make it clearer. Burns indeed - the ladies with hats is an oblique reference to another famous Burns poem -To a Louse - about a louse (strangely enough) in a woman's hat/hair in church.
Osk - glad you spotted the humour and that line break
David - blindingly obvious to me too, but then I suppose I wrote it!!! Well spotted sir. As to the short lines - they really shouldn't be short other than one objective was to have the first and last line of each stanza near rhyme mostly/closely, breath/deaf, hats/flat, before us/chorus. They are on the refurb list too.
thanks
elph
Tim - my lack of musical knowledge shown up. That line is on the refurb list.
Barrie - fair point re l1 syntax, a little edit done for now. I'll tidy up the "he's" too, to make it clearer. Burns indeed - the ladies with hats is an oblique reference to another famous Burns poem -To a Louse - about a louse (strangely enough) in a woman's hat/hair in church.
Osk - glad you spotted the humour and that line break
David - blindingly obvious to me too, but then I suppose I wrote it!!! Well spotted sir. As to the short lines - they really shouldn't be short other than one objective was to have the first and last line of each stanza near rhyme mostly/closely, breath/deaf, hats/flat, before us/chorus. They are on the refurb list too.
thanks
elph
Elphin,
We do other things on Sundays, so good to hear what other people do on the same days.
I like the revised first line which is more clear. I also quite like the present structure, the two shorter lines, each on S2 and S4 respectively, actually balance the whole poem very well. To me it is more agile, not rigid as a match box.
Enjoyable read.
Lake
We do other things on Sundays, so good to hear what other people do on the same days.
I like the revised first line which is more clear. I also quite like the present structure, the two shorter lines, each on S2 and S4 respectively, actually balance the whole poem very well. To me it is more agile, not rigid as a match box.
Enjoyable read.
Lake
I would never have thought it was your father - probably because my father never went to church or chapel. Rumour has it that when he was baptized, the font boiled and the church had to be reconsecrated.
Why not just mention your father to save any confusion?
'I accompanied my father each Sunday. Mostly
we sat in the same.......'
Barrie
Why not just mention your father to save any confusion?
'I accompanied my father each Sunday. Mostly
we sat in the same.......'
Barrie
After letting go of branches and walking through the ape gait, we managed to grasp what hands were really for......
-
Suzanne
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As a new reader to the group, I thought I would tell you what I read.
I was taught how to do religion by my father on Sundays. We were both uncomfortable. We tried to hid our presence completely with our semi-participation and yet were intrigued by the women who gave themselves to the hymns. We comforted ourselves with the rather wordy weekly prayer (nice phrase).
....
the rest of the poem went right over me in confusion.
the staging of your father and the minister, the visuals lost me.
I liked the norman rockwellian picture in my mind at the beginning, sorry that I got lost.
I hope this was constructive. I am just learning how to speak Poetry Review.
warmly,
Suzanne
I was taught how to do religion by my father on Sundays. We were both uncomfortable. We tried to hid our presence completely with our semi-participation and yet were intrigued by the women who gave themselves to the hymns. We comforted ourselves with the rather wordy weekly prayer (nice phrase).
....
the rest of the poem went right over me in confusion.
the staging of your father and the minister, the visuals lost me.
I liked the norman rockwellian picture in my mind at the beginning, sorry that I got lost.
I hope this was constructive. I am just learning how to speak Poetry Review.
warmly,
Suzanne
I liked this and read 'he' as your father, 'departed' with a double meaning. I liked the subtle rhymes and ladies with high hats. I think the B flat works: the idea for me was that they haven't subsided from a C all the way down to a Bflat, but that some top Cs were surprisingly good, while Bs which shouldn't have been were flat.
A thoughtful and atmospheric poem.
I used to go to church on Sundays, then I went to B&Q, now I stay at home and peel potatoes.
Helen
A thoughtful and atmospheric poem.
I used to go to church on Sundays, then I went to B&Q, now I stay at home and peel potatoes.
Helen
Lake - your take on the short lines is very helpful. I had been thinking over some ideas to make them longer now I might just leave it to percolate a little longer before rushing to change. Thanks
barrie - i was avoiding saying father for fear of it coming over sentimental. Let me consider that.
suzanne - good crit. Your take on it is pretty much it - the thing was neither of us could sing a note but both have a great love of words, in his case the poetry of Robert Burns in particular. I didnt know Norman Rockwell but googled and I can see what you mean. You speak Poetry Review fluently.
Helen - yes departed is meant to have a double meaning. Glad the rhymes worked - that was a big part of the exercise for me in writing it. Isn't it strange how our sundays change as we go through life - I think you should write a poem about the church-b+Q-peeling potatoes trinity!!
Ta much folks - all very constructive and helpful
elph
barrie - i was avoiding saying father for fear of it coming over sentimental. Let me consider that.
suzanne - good crit. Your take on it is pretty much it - the thing was neither of us could sing a note but both have a great love of words, in his case the poetry of Robert Burns in particular. I didnt know Norman Rockwell but googled and I can see what you mean. You speak Poetry Review fluently.
Helen - yes departed is meant to have a double meaning. Glad the rhymes worked - that was a big part of the exercise for me in writing it. Isn't it strange how our sundays change as we go through life - I think you should write a poem about the church-b+Q-peeling potatoes trinity!!
Ta much folks - all very constructive and helpful
elph
Love the ending.
Not sure what's meant by "settle closely", or why the nature of the wood would make this difficult, or what this has to do with sitting in the same spot each time, if anything.
"Rather wordy" feels out of place to me. I suppose if all you tell me about the sermons is that they were wordy, I'm wondering why you liked them... I'd prefer some more neutral way of describing the prayer.
Finally, I think you ought to specify that it's your dad you're talking about. Why not in the first line, "on Sundays, Dad [or whatever you call him] and I attended. Mostly..." or similar.
Good writing though. Rhymes work well throughout; I liked the short lines.
Not sure what's meant by "settle closely", or why the nature of the wood would make this difficult, or what this has to do with sitting in the same spot each time, if anything.
"Rather wordy" feels out of place to me. I suppose if all you tell me about the sermons is that they were wordy, I'm wondering why you liked them... I'd prefer some more neutral way of describing the prayer.
Finally, I think you ought to specify that it's your dad you're talking about. Why not in the first line, "on Sundays, Dad [or whatever you call him] and I attended. Mostly..." or similar.
Good writing though. Rhymes work well throughout; I liked the short lines.
fine words butter no parsnips
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emuse
- Preponderant Poster
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- Contact:
Elph I like this very much. I'll tell you what I understand and what escapes me but for the most part it came through.
On Sundays, I attended with (father) [him]. Mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely. (I don't see any reason why you shouldn't name the person. It is a confusion to anyone who reads it. Remember the reader has no clue who this "him" is. It could be your "partner" for all anyone knows. Do you desire the abiguity? Later, when the pronoun is mentioned again in the penultimate stanza, one wonders if the narrator refers to the minister or the first "him" as above.)
We would hum the hymns under our breath,
lip-sync the psalms and consider the music
(we were both tone deaf) (I might place this line under the first line in this stanza. Seems to belong there.)
an exclusive medium for ladies with high hats;
under which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but the occasional B flat. (I love this best!!)
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer.
So when he departed, at the kirk door
I shook the minister (what is the significance of the departure? It feels like it has more meaning than just an exit on a Sunday sermon. Is there an allusion to the father's character?)
by his hand, outstretched before us
before reciting A Man’s A Man for A’ That
to quiet the Hallelujah chorus. (I don't know significance of A Man's a Man for A. And what does "A" mean? Probably another lack of cultural reference on my part (sigh) but that part lost me. There is a very understated ending and so much so that I am lost. Having said all of that, I love the tone and mood of the piece, the playfulness of the two men struggling to be pious in church. It seems there is a small drama here but I am missing it.
e
On Sundays, I attended with (father) [him]. Mostly
we sat in the same spot; the consistency
of pew wood made it hard to settle closely. (I don't see any reason why you shouldn't name the person. It is a confusion to anyone who reads it. Remember the reader has no clue who this "him" is. It could be your "partner" for all anyone knows. Do you desire the abiguity? Later, when the pronoun is mentioned again in the penultimate stanza, one wonders if the narrator refers to the minister or the first "him" as above.)
We would hum the hymns under our breath,
lip-sync the psalms and consider the music
(we were both tone deaf) (I might place this line under the first line in this stanza. Seems to belong there.)
an exclusive medium for ladies with high hats;
under which they were wont to conceal
a surprising top C but the occasional B flat. (I love this best!!)
We preferred the rather wordy weekly prayer.
So when he departed, at the kirk door
I shook the minister (what is the significance of the departure? It feels like it has more meaning than just an exit on a Sunday sermon. Is there an allusion to the father's character?)
by his hand, outstretched before us
before reciting A Man’s A Man for A’ That
to quiet the Hallelujah chorus. (I don't know significance of A Man's a Man for A. And what does "A" mean? Probably another lack of cultural reference on my part (sigh) but that part lost me. There is a very understated ending and so much so that I am lost. Having said all of that, I love the tone and mood of the piece, the playfulness of the two men struggling to be pious in church. It seems there is a small drama here but I am missing it.
e
Elphin,
Not you usual high standard here.
It reads like a boring documentary (perhaps for a local vicarage rag), there is no development of ideas ( poetically) and the resolution in the last stanza is suspect.
What is the connection between the hard seat of the pew ( do we really care ? ) and the message in the sermon ? How have you resolved it for the reader. What interesting new ideas; insights are there that are developed poetically here ?
Seems you are recording an event only ( perhaps you could considered why this banal event is important to you ? )
Did you consider possibility of a three part act; that stood the test of time for 2000 years, Aristotle's poetics ? : beginning, middle and end ?
You have not used any poetical devices to weave your ideas using: metaphor, metonymy, synedoche or parataxis ? etc etc
Sorry Elphin, overall a flat and uninspiring monotone text
Arco
Not you usual high standard here.
It reads like a boring documentary (perhaps for a local vicarage rag), there is no development of ideas ( poetically) and the resolution in the last stanza is suspect.
What is the connection between the hard seat of the pew ( do we really care ? ) and the message in the sermon ? How have you resolved it for the reader. What interesting new ideas; insights are there that are developed poetically here ?
Seems you are recording an event only ( perhaps you could considered why this banal event is important to you ? )
Did you consider possibility of a three part act; that stood the test of time for 2000 years, Aristotle's poetics ? : beginning, middle and end ?
You have not used any poetical devices to weave your ideas using: metaphor, metonymy, synedoche or parataxis ? etc etc
Sorry Elphin, overall a flat and uninspiring monotone text
Arco
k-j, e and Arco
Thanks for your varied inputs.
k-j - I think you and others are right about that first stanza. Its meant to refer to the hard benches and how they make attendance uncomfortable but its not really saying that is it? Dad needs to go in somewhere and he will in any revision.
e- same point about Dad, taken on board. The significance of A Mans A Man (its message being all men are equal) is meant to be that the simplicity of the unadorned words with no music is greater than the big showy church as typified by its people (ladies in high hats) and the grand Hallelujah chorus.
Arco - ouch!! I like it when I get the truth though so no problem. It was hopefully more than the recording of an event but I think I need to take on board your comments on technique and also what others have said. This may have to go on the Work in progress pile until I figure out exactly what its meant to be saying and how I can deliver it better.
Thanks again
elph
Thanks for your varied inputs.
k-j - I think you and others are right about that first stanza. Its meant to refer to the hard benches and how they make attendance uncomfortable but its not really saying that is it? Dad needs to go in somewhere and he will in any revision.
e- same point about Dad, taken on board. The significance of A Mans A Man (its message being all men are equal) is meant to be that the simplicity of the unadorned words with no music is greater than the big showy church as typified by its people (ladies in high hats) and the grand Hallelujah chorus.
Arco - ouch!! I like it when I get the truth though so no problem. It was hopefully more than the recording of an event but I think I need to take on board your comments on technique and also what others have said. This may have to go on the Work in progress pile until I figure out exactly what its meant to be saying and how I can deliver it better.
Thanks again
elph
thanks Nesta - that is very much appreciated. I hope to see some of your work when you are ready.
I have posted the lastest version - its still WIP, hopefully addresses the dad bit but not yet the first stanza and the pew.
elph
I have posted the lastest version - its still WIP, hopefully addresses the dad bit but not yet the first stanza and the pew.
elph