Torcello again

[David]

They took a vaporetto to the islands,
passing thrillingly close to San Michele,
spurning Murano's glittering attractions.

She goggled at Burano's gaudy houses,
photographing many. He ate a pizza.
She almost bought some lace, and then she didn't.

He wished that she would make her bloody mind up.
They took another ferry to Torcello
and followed the canal to the cathedral.

He wouldn't come inside. He had a headache
with all this stupid walking, so she left him,
a modest shawl thrown over her shoulders,

and stopped - that Last Judgement floats
in the acqueous air like a
serpent, terribly knowing, charged

with mystery, beyond interrogation;
shimmering, gold, swimming to Byzantium ...
she thought about it all the way back.

[David]

By way of explanation, this is one Barrie didn't much like in its previous incarnation. I've changed it. I'd like to think he would approve. I wish I could ask him.

[Raisin]

I remember this one, and his comments. I liked it and didn't comment, but remember being suprised when he said it didn't do much for him. You replied, a couple more comments were added from others, then he said

"Oui"

David, you know that I'm an obsessive with the French language, so for him to say that made me laugh, it was so simple, and French. I think he would approve because you brought it up again. He said that thorugh the lines there was something good in there, I think it shows through more now.

Raisin

[Sharra]

I liked the feel of this, the different perspectives of him and her, bickering among all that history. I especially liked
'She almost bought some lace, and then she didn't. /He wished that she would make her bloody mind up'.
I also really like the way it sounds - 'goggled' 'gaudy' and 'photographing' , and 'thrillingly', 'spurning' and 'glittering' are great.

But, for me I got lost at 'stopped', it felt like it switched to another poem. Is this her looking at something in the cathedral and then thinking about it 'all the way back'? I think it is the 'and stopped' that has confused me, what has she stopped? Saying all that though, even without knowing the real meaning, I thought the line 'beyond interrogation;/ shimmering, gold, swimming to Byzantium' sounded gorgeous.

The other thing I wasn't sure about, but this is probably just me (or the early Sunday morning), was the structure. I can't even put my finger how it should be, but the 3 line stanzas felt a little forced to me.

Sharra
xx

[BenJohnson]

David I haven't been to Venice (among a huge list of other place ), so I had to google Torcello. Thanks to Wikipedia I caught a glimpse of the Last Judgement although I didn't really need to since the impact of seeing it is felt in the poem. The petty irritations of the day forgotten by it's splendor.

I think you have one typo in there I guess you mean 'aqueous' air. This intrigued me 'aqueous air' and 'swimming to Byzantium' in my mind has the light playing on the water reflected on the gold of the mosaic, yet just before you said it was inside. So is this just a reference to it being on the canals?

Another point for me is

that Last Judgement floats
in the acqueous air like a
serpent

An interesting analogy since the serpent is always portrayed in a bad sense in the Bible, for this religious scene to be compared to a serpent therefore casts it in a different light. Is this intended?

None of which detracts from the fact that I enjoyed this, the commonplace transformed by a striking event.

[David]

Thanks Raisin, you little francophile you. I liked Barrie's answer too, but I thought one of the reasons he just said Oui was that I'd restructured a "you" poem as a "we" poem. I could be remembering that wrong.

Is this her looking at something in the cathedral and then thinking about it 'all the way back'?

That's what I had in mind, Sharra. It is another poem for a while, I think - the metre changes from five beats a line to four, unless I'm doing it wrong - perhaps it's an out-of-body (or out-of-poem) experience.

Ben, Torcello is a wonderful place, but I have never been able to spell "aqueous", which is - as you say - a canal reference. It's not so much that it's on a canal (it's on a canal on an island) but that you never lose that awareness of the water, which somehows seems to inform everything. Water, like love, is all around.

Good point about the serpent. I don't want the image to have too much of an evil aura. There are more positive connotations - "The Serpent or Dragon has long been the symbol of wisdom all over the world, from the Egyptians, Chinese Greeks, Maya, Celts and the Vikings." (That's not a very grammatical sentence, but it makes the point okay.) Might need to think about that, though. I wanted more the sense of enlightenment than corruption.

Cheers all

David

[Raisin]

I think you're right David. Francophile? I love that

[David]

I confess - if you hadn't noticed - that I'm a bit of a francophile myself. Listening to Jacques Brel at the moment! Now where's them Gauloises? (French word for wellington boots. Of course, they never mention Wellington.)

Actually, this is one I've never heard before - L'Enfance. It's lovely.

How's Auntie Sneaks? She's been very quiet.

Cheers

David

[Raisin]

Sneaker is fine, I'm sure she'd be pleased that you asked, she's been quite busy recently, I'm trying to organise a stay at her place in the summer, it was a nice change last year from the North

Raisin

[Nigel]

This piece is very uneven. Much of it has the rhythm of prose. For instance in the first stanza

They took a vaporetto to the islands,
passing thrillingly close to San Michele,
spurning Murano's glittering attractions.

the word 'thrillingly' should never be in a poem and there are too many present participles - too repetitious.

'He wished that she would make her bloody mind up.' - this again has the rhythm of prose - too many words in the line, it doesn't scan - the word 'bloody' is mostly to blame. 'stupid walking' is weak and prosy. 'goggled' is dreadful. Oh dear, oh dear. The sum total is that I was so distracted by the above that the sense of it, which is fairly transparent, escaped me on first reading. Strangely the last three stanzas contain some rather good poetry.

[David]

Thanks, Nigel. Always entertaining to read your remarks.

Cheers

David

[Callum C]

I like this one but I just think it could be livened up a bit. Some of the words, though not out of place, aren't very challenging, so aren't very rewarding.

There's a bit of a deadness to the first stanza.

In the second verse, words like 'goggled', the line; He ate a pizza: they just don't offer the reader very much that a photo wouldn't.

'He wished that she would make her bloody mind up' seems to be performing a rhythmical function but not doing much else.

You mention 'stupid walking', but the tone is very relaxed, passive, vacant even.

Again, 'modest shawl'. Fine but not extraordinary.

[Nigel]

Oh dear - I didn't intend my remarks to be entertaining.

[David]

Thanks Callum (and Nigel, again).

Does anybody think I might have wanted to make the language of the first part of the poem deliberately flat and stale, in order to reflect the nature of the relationship described?

Just wondered.

Cheers

David

[BenJohnson]

Well after yesterday's debate it did occur that the prosaic structure of the first half would have reflected the boredom of the first half of the day, with the heightened use of language reflecting the wife's later experience. If that is what you mean.

[David]

Well after yesterday's debate it did occur that the prosaic structure of the first half would have reflected the boredom of the first half of the day, with the heightened use of language reflecting the wife's later experience. If that is what you mean.

You are a very perceptive fellow, Ben.

Cheers

David

[Nigel]

I did think that for a moment but dismissed it because the pedestrian timbre of the language wasn't subtle enough for the contrast to work. It may have been better to use imagery rather than language to create the desired effect I think. I mean 'goggled' is awful.

[Callum C]

If you're aiming for stale language, I'm not sure if words like 'thrillingly' and 'glittering' fit the bill.

[David]

Ah well. Never mind lads.

[Raisin]

I didn't want to analyse it too much because I like this as it is, taking away all the "I's" works very well, and I actually like "goggled", it's a weird word to use but it is exactly the sort of word that you would use to describe how tourists look at things.

The first stanza is familiar to the over exaggeration of a holiday company, "glitteringly", etc, I think this works because it hooks the reader in a similar way to how the tourist agency would reel in a customer. The second stanza I love, brilliantly simple and keeping the basic detail, sometimes the least elaborate lines are the ones that stand out, "he ate a pizza" is great.

"He wished she would make her bloody mind up", again, an insensitive tourist couple who are oblivious to the beauty around them, I thought that the reason you put in words like "bloody" was to make it more as the perspective of the tourists than the poet or the reader, typical red faced englishman talking in a loud patronising voice to his wife.

And the last stanza is fantasic, the realisation of the female character, thoughtful, changed, etc.

I thought it was lovely, different opinions I guess

Thanks again David,

Raisin

[David]

Ah. mon ange! I think you read this exactly as I hoped it would be read.

But it's all subjective, Raisin. It's all good. Come one come all, and chacun à son goût.

I've got French A-level me, you know.

Cheers

David

P.S. Toodle pip to Auntie Sneaker.

[dedalus]

Now, then, where are we coming from? Aha ...

You took a vaporetto to the islands.
You passed thrillingly close to San Michele.
You spurned Murano's glittering attractions.

You goggled at Burano's gaudy houses,
photographing many. You ate a pizza.
You almost bought some lace, and then you didn't.

You took another ferry to Torcello.
You followed the canal to the cathedral.
You entered the unconsecrated shell.

You stopped - that Last Judgement floats
in the acqueous air like a
serpent, terribly knowing, charged

with mystery, beyond interrogation;
shimmering, gold, swimming to Byzantium ...
you thought about it all the way back.

That was last November ... the 17th at 6:06 pm, in fact, to which I replied:

This began to take off, for me, with the second stanza. The first, I felt, didn't really do anything. I wonder if there is a way of getting around or even away from the "You do this", "You do that", "You do another thing" format which (again, to my mind) acts as a distraction from some of the precise and quite rivetting language at the heart of the poem? And do I detect a nod and a wink in the direction of Mr. Yeats? I would dearly like to see a second version of this piece! See what barrie did with his Ypres poem, for example, keeping all the good bits intact.

... and to which, later, grumpy dear old barrie was to respond with his legendary "oui".

I like to have a wee squint at my case notes before I tug down on the lapels of my robes, which don't have any lapels, and scrunch the second-hand wig down over my eyes. Why ... ahhh ... have we been provided with no link? Ahh, indeed.

Two-and-a-half months is not so bad: time to think (with some good poems inbetween, esp. the Library) -- and I'm really glad you went back to it. I will pretend you were actually listening to me when I begged, demanded, or wheedled this second version. It was worth the wait.

Cheers,
Bren

[David]

Bren, of course I listen to you. You and Barrie practically kicked this rewrite out of me. Eventually. Arigato!

Cheers

David