Over at Auntie Mags (cuts, edits)

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

Peter, that is not what I meant. When I stated it's in the genes, I mean people from England and Ireland have similar DNA. Therefore, their cognitive abilities are similar. As a result, the writing patterns, and the type of humor, (resulting from mental ability) of people from both countries are similar. The DNA would show people from England and Ireland as part of the Katrine Clan, or the Ursula Clan, as an example. I would say either Haploid R, Haploid K or one of the sub-groups of K, or Haploid U, if I were to guess.

Geneticists: English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh Are Same People
Wednesday March 7, 2007
According to an article in the New York Times, the DNA of individuals throughout the United Kingdom is so strikingly similar that the people of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales may all be descended from the same majority population that has existed on the islands for thousands of years and may not be descended from different peoples at all. Will we be able to put to rest the idea that England, Scotland, and Wales are separate independent countries?

So, you have heard it here first. With respect to Ireland and England having similar DNA, and dialect aside, the construction of the poem, or story is similar in both groups of people. This includes the way humor is woven into a poem, or story, and also includes dry humor. This is all I am stating.

Best,

Tamara

[dedalus]

Geneticists: English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh Are Same People
Wednesday March 7, 2007
According to an article in the New York Times, the DNA of individuals throughout the United Kingdom is so strikingly similar that the people of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales may all be descended from the same majority population that has existed on the islands for thousands of years and may not be descended from different peoples at all.

More British humour? America was settled by English colonists and was wholly part of the United Kingdom until 1783! The key phrase above is "thousands of years" which doesn't make anyone "British". In fact, our closest DNA match is with Spain, giving rise to the theory that the islands were populated from the Iberian peninsula shortly after the end of the last Ice Age. Aie, carramba!!

So, you have heard it here first. With respect to Ireland and England having similar DNA, and dialect aside, the construction of the poem, or story is similar in both groups of people. This includes the way humor is woven into a poem, or story, and also includes dry humor. This is all I am stating.

Well, you've heard it here second: language and culture determine the way people think and behave ... and the things they laugh at and how they write poetry ... and not DNA. Otherwise we'd all be writing Spanish or whatever language the Iberians were speaking 10,000 years ago ... Basque?? ... and laughing at Stone Age jokes. The Anglo-Saxons and the Normans from whom the English language and the political centralisation of England and later Britain (a relatively recent concept) derived came over in the 5th and 11th centuries AD, respectively. The Celts had arrived between 800-500 BC and have left an indelible cultural stamp on the so-called Celtic Fringe of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The conquest of Wales occurred in the Middle Ages but Scotland and Ireland were not militarily subdued until much later and neither country was formally absorbed into the UK until 1707 and 1801, respectively. By then the Gaelic oral and literary traditions had been flourishing for nearly 1500 years. You can ignore that, I suppose, and claim that " dialect aside, the construction of the poem, or story is similar in both groups of people". Not many would agree with you.

Slán anois,
Brendan

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

More British humour? America was settled by English colonists and was wholly part of the United Kingdom until 1783! The key phrase above is "thousands of years" which doesn't make anyone "British". In fact, our closest DNA match is with Spain, giving rise to the theory that the islands were populated from the Iberian peninsula shortly after the end of the last Ice Age. Aie, carramba!!

Yes, thousands of years, or else how do you explain this.

Early settlement

Around 4,500 BC the first farming settlements began to emerge, as immigrants from Europe bring farming know how with them. By 3,500 BC farming settlements existed in most of Britain. Clay pots have been found dating from as far back as 4,100 BC.

And genetic studies by Oppenheimer and Sykes show that both English and Irish have Iberian ancestors.

[PDF]
English, Irish, Scots: They're All One, Genes Suggest
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Dr. Sykes said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer on this point, ... As for his thesis that the British and Irish are genetically much alike, ... SEE Paragrahps 4-6

http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/levin/bio311d ... hscots.pdf


**Dr. Doron Bahar, William Hurst, etc. have written extensively on this subject of DNA

*A DNA match is dependent on the sub-group. As an example Haploid K is European origin, from Katrine, dated 16,000 years ago. Katrine was the founding mothers of some Europeans, as was Ursula. Katie Kouric is Haploid K, which means her roots go back to Katrine. Oetzi the iceman was also Haploid K. Haploid K has sub-groups. Yet, K1a1b1a, K1a9, and one other are Ashkenazi Jews. And those who are K1a3a, K1a4, K1a3a1, etc. are 100% European. So, when you state our closest DNA match is with Iberia, you are probably referring to the Haploid U group, but please note the subgroups under U. As an example, U6 is found only in Iberia and U3 is found in Ireland. U6 is not a genetic match with U3, although they share the founding mother Ursula.

Here is an attempt to classify European mtDNA sub-haplogroups by region.

Haplogroup H

H1 : found in all Europe ; highest in Iceland, Russia and Germany ; lowest in S-E Europe => Northern European
H1b : mostly found in Eastern Europe and North Central Europe. => Slavic-Germanic
H2 : found mostly in Scotland, Germany and Eastern Europe.
H2a : found mostly in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. => Kurgan
H2b : Cambridge Reference Sequence
H3 : found mostly in Western and Northern Europe. Highest frequency in Iberia, Sardinia and Germanic countries.
H4 : found in all Europe except Russia ; highest in Iberia, Central and S-E Europe. => European (possibly Celtic)
H5 : found mostly in France, Italy and Iberia. Absent from Russia, Finland and Ireland. => European (possibly Celtic)
H5a : most common in Central Europe => Celtic
H6 : rare in Europe ; most common in Central Asia and the Middle East.
H8 : mostly found in Eastern and Northern Europe ; absent or rare in Ireland, Iberia, France, Italy and the Alps. => Slavic-Germanic

Haplogroup U

U1 : found mostly in Italy ; absent or rare in Northern and S-E Europe. => Latin
U2 : found in most of Europe except Russia and S-E Europe.
U3 : found mostly in S-E Europe, then Germany. Absent from Ireland and Finland.
U4 : Common all over Europe, but most common in Russia.
U5 : found in all Europe except Russia and Finland. Most common in France and Scandinavia.
U5a : Common everywhere in Europe.
U5a1 : Mostly found in Finland and Russia. Absent from the Mediterranean, France, Ireland, Scotland and Iceland.
U5b : found mosly between Germany, Finland and Russia. Rare in southern Europe.
U5b1 : found only in Nordic countries and Russia.
U6 : found only in Iberia.

Haplogroup K

K1 : found almost only in Germanic countries + Ireland. => Germanic
K2 : found mostly around the Alps. Rare in Northern Europe and Russia. => Celtic
K2a : found almost only in Scandinavia, Britain and Ireland. => Germanic
K2b : found in Britain, Iberia and the Alps. => Celtic

Haplogroup J

J1 : found mostly in S-E Europe and the Alps. Absent or rare in Western and Northern Europe.
J1a : mostly found in Germanic countries (Alps included). Absent from Russia and S-E Europe. => Germanic
J1b : found in Russia, S-E Europe, France, Italy and Iberia => Southern & Eastern European.
J1b1 : found mostly in Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia, but also a bit in France and Germany. => Germanic
J2 : mostly found in France, Italy and S-E Europe. Rare in Germanic countries. => Mediterranean

Haplogroup T

T1 : found everywhere in Europe, especially in the South and East. => European
T2 : found mostly in Northern, Central and Eastern Europe. => Slavic-Germanic
T3 : found at the highest frequency in Iceland. Otherwise at low frequencies in Germanic countries and Italy. => Germanic
T4 : found at low frequencies in Northern & Eastern Europe, Germany and Italy. Germanic
T5 : found mostly in Central Europe and Britain => Celtic

You might want to read the Geneticists' (Doron Bahar and William Hurst) papers. They are the experts.

Well, you've heard it here second: language and culture determine the way people think and behave ... and the things they laugh at and how they write poetry ... and not DNA.

****If that were the case why are the Ashkenazi Jews (Einstein) the smartest in the world? This is not culture, or learned behavior, but genetics.

At any rate, I do not want to digress. Your poem was the subject, and I enjoyed it.

Best,

Tamara

[Sulpicia]

Hi Dedalus
Just to say that I didn't see the original version, but this revision is great, it works really well, and I enjoyed it very much. Nothing of substance to add.
cheers
Helen

[dedalus]

Thanks for the comment, Helen, and thanks to Tamara for the fascinating info on DNA subgroups. I'm quite prepared to accept that all the people of the islands share similar DNA but that a divergence in languages and culture and relative isolation over long historical periods plays a more important role in determining how people express themselves and come to grips with life. A corresponding convergence has been taking place over the last several centuries as the separate languages and peoples have come in closer contact. England has been politically and economically dominant throughout this later period but there are some interesting subplots involved, one of which is the influence of Irish writers on English literature beginning around the 18th century. It was not until the mid-19th century that the majority of the population became English speakers, giving rise to a number of 'Irishisms' much mocked by the English ("I do be going", "Amn't I after telling you ...", etc) which are more or less direct translations from Gaelic grammatical forms. The influence of the older Gaelic literary tradition is still much in evidence and it may interest you to know, for example, that the poet Seamus Heaney is a bilingual Irish-English speaker.

Brendan

[Marc]

Whoa, if I were Tamara I'd be keeping my head down - telling an Irishman he's really an Englishman (and his sense of humour is due to his British genes) is a bit like lighting your farts in a fireworks factory!

Still, if it says so in Wiki it must be true? No?

Marc
(oh, and the poem is better now after the reduction of the second voice, though I'd still prefer it if it was all just the one voice. Good writing anyway.

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

Thanks for the comment, Helen, and thanks to Tamara for the fascinating info on DNA subgroups. I'm quite prepared to accept that all the people of the islands share similar DNA but that a divergence in languages and culture and relative isolation over long historical periods plays a more important role in determining how people express themselves and come to grips with life. A corresponding convergence has been taking place over the last several centuries as the separate languages and peoples have come in closer contact. England has been politically and economically dominant throughout this later period but there are some interesting subplots involved, one of which is the influence of Irish writers on English literature beginning around the 18th century. It was not until the mid-19th century that the majority of the population became English speakers, giving rise to a number of 'Irishisms' much mocked by the English ("I do be going", "Amn't I after telling you ...", etc) which are more or less direct translations from Gaelic grammatical forms. The influence of the older Gaelic literary tradition is still much in evidence and it may interest you to know, for example, that the poet Seamus Heaney is a bilingual Irish-English speaker.

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

Brendan wrote:

Thanks for the comment, Helen, and thanks to Tamara for the fascinating info on DNA subgroups. I'm quite prepared to accept that all the people of the islands share similar DNA but that a divergence in languages and culture and relative isolation over long historical periods plays a more important role in determining how people express themselves and come to grips with life. A corresponding convergence has been taking place over the last several centuries as the separate languages and peoples have come in closer contact. England has been politically and economically dominant throughout this later period but there are some interesting subplots involved, one of which is the influence of Irish writers on English literature beginning around the 18th century. It was not until the mid-19th century that the majority of the population became English speakers, giving rise to a number of 'Irishisms' much mocked by the English ("I do be going", "Amn't I after telling you ...", etc) which are more or less direct translations from Gaelic grammatical forms. The influence of the older Gaelic literary tradition is still much in evidence and it may interest you to know, for example, that the poet Seamus Heaney is a bilingual Irish-English speaker.

Of course, I agree that people are products of their environment, and culture to a certain extent, and I never believed genetics had anything to do with that until I had my own DNA done, and then started researching out information from geneticists. When Dr. Doron Bahar, the famous Geneticist, Haifa, Israel detailed the Jewish diaspora, he gave DNA evidence, with respect to the European Ashkenazi Jews, and showed how they all had the same genetic markers, I started to believe there is something to this. When I had my own mtDNA done, I had many hits throughout Europe, mostly England and Ireland. When I had the second refined DNA test done I was K1a3a1 and there were only three hits, all England. So, Katrine is also my distant ancestor. Yet, Katrine is a sub-group of Ursula, which is Haploid U and many English and Irish are under that group, as well, as the R group.

Brenden, I did not mean to insult you. I'm sorry. Think about it this way though, everyone came from Africa. From Africa some moved to Spain, and others to various parts of the world. The oldest footprints found; however, place Adam and Eve in Africa. And all the DNA results on the Human Genome Project place Africa as the starting point for mankind.

You mention the Irish being mocked by the English (I do be going, etc), yet there are none who could mock Yeats. I was reading a few of his poems the other night. He was an excellent poet, and I've been reading about how talented, and great the Irish writers are, and how much was lost when they had to translate from Gaelic to English.

With respect to your poem. This is my favorite verse.

Are you still with the wife? Jayz, I thought
she was a fearful bitch but you'd know best,
and I suppose the children are well?
Your eldest lad's no longer in prison?
Ah, sure, Peadar's as well as he can be,
putting on his trousers backwards,
and making telephone calls to the Pope.

It's so real, and the second line is hilarious. The last line reminds me of a friend who writes the President every other day, complaining about something, or other, and always insignificant. Like he has time to listen with what's on his plate. What a joke!

You should write a book of these poems. I'd buy one!

What I found to be so beautiful all throughout Ireland were the white lace curtains in the windows of all the homes. I wear my kelly green sweater with the Shamrock on the front and the Blarney Castle Logo on the arm of the sweater every St. Patrick's day. I also have one of the thick ivory colored fisherman's sweater. Ireland was the only place I had ever seen a double rainbow.

God Bless you, Brenden!

Best,

Tamara

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

Marc wrote:

Whoa, if I were Tamara I'd be keeping my head down - telling an Irishman he's really an Englishman (and his sense of humour is due to his British genes) is a bit like lighting your farts in a fireworks factory!

Marc, actually it is not British genes, as I mentioned earlier. It is that both English and Irish have the same ancestor. So, if either group makes fun of the other it is tantamount to making fun of your own brother, or sister. And that would be shameful, wouldn't it?
Yet, that aside, all mankind comes from African genes. And that's fact, Marc. No Wiki there.

Still, if it says so in Wiki it must be true? No?

***That was just a reference. There are two geneticists who have written books on the subject, after having done extensive DNA research on people from Ireland and England. I believe one author was Sykes, and I don't recall the other one, at this point.

Best,

Tamara

[brianedwards]

Late to this one Bren, but just wanted to add my enjoyment.
I agree with the general consensus that the opening 3 stanzas (or so) are stronger than the rest, but that is hardly surprising considering the excellence of those opening riffs. Just listen to these lines:

I can't believe he gave me eleven children
with the sad little willy that's on him now.
Another cup, or a drop of the craythur?
The oul' pins are not what they used be
so get your arse off the chair and go over
to the cupboard beyond, you'll find Matty
Kiernan's finest, made above in the mountains.
You'll take a drop of milk to cut the edge?

The ease with which you employ the vernacular to develop character, place, a whole fucking world in so few words, is quite extraordinary. Top drawer.

B.

~

[dedalus]

I wasn't in the least bit insulted, Tamara, put your mind at rest. Controversy in Ireland is the elixir of life whereas our British cousins, in other avenues of life quite brutal, quaver (owing, I believe, to embarrassment) from the nuances of social confrontation --- but let's not get into such cultural differences. After all, our DNA is the same! No, it was a good discussion and I was impressed by the fact you had checked out your own DNA and got really deep into the subject. Do you know anything about what the Mormons are doing in Salt Lake City with their comprehensive family database? Is there a connection? Must be.

You'd be a sight to see on St. Patrick's Day, with all your fine clothes! I draw the line at green beer which I never saw in my life until I went to the USA. What?? There's only ONE black beer!

Ahh, Brian. When it doesn't work you'd be (have been) the first to tell me. Occasionally it clicks. I couldn't tell you why. There's no telling in advance, and that's for damn sure.

Right so,
Brendan

[Tamara Beryl Latham]

dedalus wrote:

Do you know anything about what the Mormons are doing in Salt Lake City with their comprehensive family database? Is there a connection? Must be.

***The Sorenson genetic database belongs to the Mormons.

SMGF
The Sorenson Database is the foremost collection of genetic genealogy data in the world. Search by DNA results or surname and find your place in the ...
http://www.smgf.org/ - Cached - Similar


Anyone in the world can contact them and they will send a free DNA kit. It takes a few months before they give you an ID number to check the results of your DNA testing on their database. Remember, as well. A male can get DNA done through his father's line, (YDNA), or his mother's line (mtDNA), because males have both X and Y chromosomes. A female can only test through her mother's line,(mtDNA, maternal DNA), because she doesn't have the Y chromosome. So, if she wants to find out about her father's line, she would need a brother, or a male cousin, a father, or a grandfather to test, and then their results would be compared to hers. The male relative must be one from the father's line though (same last name).

I submitted to Sorenson first, but their results just showed other people who had similar DNA. They did not give the haploid group, or sub-group, or anything meaningful. Sorenson stated if I wanted further information I would have to use Genentech which is part of their group, and additional money.

I found FamilyTreeDNA to be quite thorough, and I would suggest anyone wanting DNA done to use FamilyTreeDNA.

Family Tree DNA - Genetic testing to answer your genealogy questions
Establishing DNA fingerprints for the purpose of determining ancestral pedigrees. Testing is available to both amateur and professional genealogists.
http://www.familytreedna.com/

Keep in mind, DNA testing is very expensive. My HVR1 cost about $199.00 US and my HVR2 (more refined test) cost about $129.00 US. They now have the super-refined FTDNA which costs $499.00 US. This test will give your sub-group definitely, where the HVR2 refined test gives just an estimate of one's sub-group. If I had it to do over I would have just gotten the FTDNA, and not the other tests.

Yes, on St. Patrick's day everything is green, including the icing on cakes, green beer, green muffins, and lots of green jello too.

Best,

Tamara

[Basnik]

Hi,

Just wanted to say, congrats, D - this is one of the best things I've read all year on the board. Brilliant sense of voice, of character and just really well realised.

Enjoyed very much (A)

Rich Basnik

[stuartryder]

Hi Brendan

Would you just tell me one thing: does irony cross the gene pool from England to Ireland and back? Because I was just wondering. Praps it's an Island Thing?

Cheers

Stuart

[stuartryder]

Hi Tamara

So, I'm still not clear: what has all this testing taught you about yourself? As a person living your life, I mean.

It just seems a lot of money to spend to find out some possibilities that don't necessarily account for YOU.

Stuart

dedalus wrote:

Do you know anything about what the Mormons are doing in Salt Lake City with their comprehensive family database? Is there a connection? Must be.

***The Sorenson genetic database belongs to the Mormons.

SMGF
The Sorenson Database is the foremost collection of genetic genealogy data in the world. Search by DNA results or surname and find your place in the ...
http://www.smgf.org/ - Cached - Similar


Anyone in the world can contact them and they will send a free DNA kit. It takes a few months before they give you an ID number to check the results of your DNA testing on their database. Remember, as well. A male can get DNA done through his father's line, (YDNA), or his mother's line (mtDNA), because males have both X and Y chromosomes. A female can only test through her mother's line,(mtDNA, maternal DNA), because she doesn't have the Y chromosome. So, if she wants to find out about her father's line, she would need a brother, or a male cousin, a father, or a grandfather to test, and then their results would be compared to hers. The male relative must be one from the father's line though (same last name).

I submitted to Sorenson first, but their results just showed other people who had similar DNA. They did not give the haploid group, or sub-group, or anything meaningful. Sorenson stated if I wanted further information I would have to use Genentech which is part of their group, and additional money.

I found FamilyTreeDNA to be quite thorough, and I would suggest anyone wanting DNA done to use FamilyTreeDNA.

Family Tree DNA - Genetic testing to answer your genealogy questions
Establishing DNA fingerprints for the purpose of determining ancestral pedigrees. Testing is available to both amateur and professional genealogists.
http://www.familytreedna.com/

Keep in mind, DNA testing is very expensive. My HVR1 cost about $199.00 US and my HVR2 (more refined test) cost about $129.00 US. They now have the super-refined FTDNA which costs $499.00 US. This test will give your sub-group definitely, where the HVR2 refined test gives just an estimate of one's sub-group. If I had it to do over I would have just gotten the FTDNA, and not the other tests.

Yes, on St. Patrick's day everything is green, including the icing on cakes, green beer, green muffins, and lots of green jello too.

Best,

Tamara

[dedalus]

Praps it's an Island Thing?

Nahh ... DNA. Obviously. Move along, pal, no time for chit-chat. Off you go.