Being invited to post in the Experienced

[Suzanne]

Good morning,

I would like the following to be discussed. Thank you.

The mods have invited Suzanne to post her poems in Experienced any time she wants in future, and this is the first (moved from Beginners at her request).

Well done Suzanne.

Cheers

David

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9904&

I also retain the right to move work from one board to another. As Sharra has noted, this is hackneyed, wishy-washy verse that reads like the work of a beginner. You should seriously read more and develop a broader understanding of why your writing is repeatedly criticized as cliched.

B.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13561

I agreed with B. and he moved the poem back to the Beginner's.

But on reflection, I don't think it is fair actually.

Did I show an unwillingness to learn? Did I show and unwillingness to edit? Did I argue and defend my weak poem?
Anyone who reads my replies knows I am eager, almost desperate to improve. This is not right.

Have not expressed my own frustration in my replies that I am struggling and in a bad phase?Have I not asked for help through the Poetry Discussion Forum?

Are Moderators culling out poems individually and removing them from the Experience due to poor quality?
I am sure mine are not the only poems written by someone in the Experienced going through a bad phase.

Has my invitation been removed to participate in the Experienced? Or is it that every poem I post is potentially going to get moved back into the Beginner's if I do?

Is it true for everyone then or just me? Can we, as a forum, point to other's poems we feel a not good enough to remain in the Experienced?

B. was angry and he waved his authority in a threat of moving my poem. And did it on at my agreement but... the threat... I am thinking, that was not good leadership nor was it phrased in constructive language.

This is certainly not encouragement.


Somebody needs to discuss this.

Warmly,
Suzanne

[Marc]

Oooo ooo ooo hot potato...

Ok, I'll wade in where poets fear to tread (can you wade into a hot potato without burning your knees?)

I think Brian has been a bit severe. It must feel like quite a slap if having been told you shoud be posting in experienced by one very skilled poet you are then picked up and dumped back into the beginners section. In truth there is good and not so good work in both places, much work in the beginners section is skilled and pleasing - some of the work in the experienced section smacks of trying too hard...

The point I'm making is posting in either place is honourable. However as David had suggested posting in experienced to then be picked up and dumped in beginners is going to feel like an insult particularly after a minor spat occurred (stemming from calling Brian 'Brain' it seems. A reasonable description I feel... I jest, I know there was a little more to it).

Anyway I quite liked Suzanne's poem although as I gently said the description of the Sun's radiant happy beams did make me wince. There were other phases that were too poetically vague or lacked a little originality however there was much that was pleasant in it and a more thoughtful constructive criticism could have been used.

Having said that I value Brian's criticism even though he's sometimes harsh and I respect the work the moderators put into the board. And ultimately there is no point in having an experienced and beginners section if we don't apply some editorial standard to vet the quality; I just think Brian was too harsh.

I know that even as I write this he's sitting with a white cat upon his lap in his lair on Mount Fuji laughing at his maniacal power. Have you been expecting me?
Marc

[nar]

I think this raises an important point about the differences between beg & exp.

What is the difference?

Is it the quality of the writing?
or
Is it the depth & intensity of the crit?
or
Both?

It seems that crit on beg is gentler, regardless of how good or bad the poem is. What should I do if I write something that I know is a heap of stinking doggerel, but I want real help with it? It doesn't seem to belong anywhere.

Similarly, where do I post my technically-perfect, untouchable masterpiece that I know to be perfect, and deserves only applause, kudos and big wet snogs, but no crit?

Having also recently been invited to exp, I'm sometimes not sure where to post.

I value Brian's criticism even though he's sometimes harsh

As do I, very much so.

Brian's like a quality butchers knife: sharp on one side, blunt on the other, and usually has a decent point. I'm not sure if he's overstepped his MOD role here by moving your poem Suzanne, but I would say that such an action could be interpreted in many ways, and I understand why you feel the way you do.

Kindest,

- Neil

[Suzanne]

Thank you Marc and Neil for your replies.

I want to state CLEARLY that this is not about Brian's crit of my poem. I agreed it was poor and could be improved.
Brian's knowledge of poetry is NOT the issue.

This is not about his obvious educated input and ability to crit a poem. We all know he is very good at it. We all are aware of his talent. He writer brilliantly and his work is solid.

This is not even about Brian. Brian clearly knows I think he is more than qualified to critique my work. Brian knows his opinions are valued by me.

The topic is THREATENING to move poems of regular participating posters who are willing to improve.

Don't lose track of the topic.
My feelings are not hurt that he didn't like my poem.

My sense of fair play and polite manners are ruffled.

This is about the threat.

What other poem has been threatened to be moved like mine was? Maybe this happens all the time and i don't notice it?

Maybe these are just the rules of the game in the Experienced and i just don't fit in?

I am not a great poet. I keep coming back hoping to improve.

Brian's ability to crit is one of the assets of the board.

This is not about his talent, it is about threatening to move individual poems of regular posters.


Warmly,
Suzanne

[Oskar]

Poetry Circle would appear to operate a good method by which ALL poems that are submitted start off in the same place.

If any movement does occur, it can only be up, not down!. And I quote –

Your work may be moved to the read-only Editors' Picks board or to the Featured Poems board by one of Poetry Circle's roving editors. Poems most recently moved to the Featured Poems board will appear on the front page of Poetry Circle.

By this method of drawing from a general pool, where everyone is obliged to submit their work, no one has to suffer the indignity of seeing their work moved ‘down’ to another board.

Some of our existing members are active participants at Poetry Circle and may wish to venture their own opinions on this matter.

[Suzanne]

Thank you for your time, Oskar, that does sound like a good system.


Could the Board please officially clarify when it is appropriate
for Moderators to use threats to move poems from Experienced to Beginner's?

I would like it clearly stated if this is acceptable as a Board norm (in which case I will quietly comply) or I would like a public apology.


Warmly,
Suzanne

[Ros]

Suzanne,

I also retain the right to move work from one board to another. B.

Yes, I can confirm that as mods we reserve the right to move poems around as we see fit. I don't see the above remark as a 'threat'. I think your comments are particularly disingenuous when you had, privately, asked Brian to not pull punches and give you crits as harshly as he felt necessary, and you know he does not mince words.

On the broader issue of where to post: we have discussed this many times, and although the current system may not be ideal, despite much discussion we can see equal pros and cons of other methods. Posting in experience does not only mean that the poem has to be of a certain standard, but that the poet has sufficient experience to take on board more technical crits - and also to supply them to others. There's a longer discussion here viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12884. I view it a bit like being in an orchestra - you wouldn't expect players to come along and tackle Mozart when they still need to work on some of the basics. I know we have very flippant crits in both exp and beg, but that's cos we like to be a laid-back, relaxed and friendly board. If someone used to posting in Beg wants a more technical crit, just say so on the poem and we will try to oblige.

Ros

[Suzanne]

Thank you for your official Board reply, Ros. I appreciated it.

However, addressing the broader topic is just changing the subject. It can be a new thread if needed.

But, yes, I agree, what you quoted does not look like a threat. It does look quite different taken out of context:

I also retain the right to move work from one board to another. As Sharra has noted, this is hackneyed, wishy-washy verse that reads like the work of a beginner. You should seriously read more and develop a broader understanding of why your writing is repeatedly criticized as cliched.

B.

Which I do see as a threat to me, a regular poster who admits struggling to improve.

I do not see it as a critique. If you refer to the guidelines of what constructive critique is, you will not find an example of this. Brian is talented, valued for is ability to convey meaning through in writing. The above is not educational, constructive nor is it encouraging. It is not a critique expected from someone of his caliber. I do not see any merit in it other than to make me angry because I misspelled his name.


I have read your reply. I understand it to mean this:

Since I asked him privately to give me honesty in his critiques, I should have then understood Brain publicly does not "mince" words. (defined meaning: "to say what he means clearly and directly, even if he upsets people by doing this." )


Which implies the above quote is acceptable, he can do and say whatever he likes as a Mod. We should all understand this.
And you see him as innocent of any wrong doing, he handled the thread in a manner which is supported by the Board.


(It is also a pity that in your reply, you state that you found my comments disingenuous based on what he has conveyed I said in private conversations.
No one asked me about our private exchanges and what was said or understood.)





My response is that we clearly have a difference of opinion as to the appropriateness his behavior in question and proper board etiquette.
I believe I am owed an apology.






It is important that these sorts of Board actions are clarified so people clearly understand the rules and norms of the environment they are posting in.



I want to thank the Board for providing a place to speak.


Warmly,
Suzanne

[Sharra]

Suzanne
The bottom line is that you agreed to the poem being moved, if you had an issue with this it could have been brought up at that point. As Ros has stated, all mods have the right to move poems as we see fit - this is not a threat, this is a fact, and Brian acted within his remit.

While I respect that you feel upset and need some sort of resolution, I feel that it would probably be more appropriate to try to resolve a situation like this by pming the mod involved (or another) before trying to involve everyone in a public debate. Of course if you feel it doesn't get resolved then speaking about it publicly is another matter. This is not an attempt at killing 'free speech' more an attempt at sorting out any conflict before it escalates.

I would ask that we not try to open the whole Beg/Exp debate - we've done that to death - our system isn't perfect, no system is, but it works on the whole.

To answer a couple of points specifically:

Since I asked him privately to give me honesty in his critiques, I should have then understood Brain publicly does not "mince" words. (defined meaning: "to say what he means clearly and directly, even if he upsets people by doing this." )

Yes – as a long time poster of the board you know that everyone has their own style of critique, and if you specifically ask for harsher crits, that’s what you will get.

Which implies the above quote is acceptable, he can do and say whatever he likes as a Mod. We should all understand this.

No, he can’t do and say whatever he likes, but as I say above he has acted within his remit in this case.

And you see him as innocent of any wrong doing, he handled the thread in a manner which is supported by the Board.

Yes, the mods all support him.

Sharra
x

[Suzanne]

Dear Sharra, Thank you for your reply.

Yes, the mods all support him.

Okay. It is clear that the Mods all support Brian's behavior.

Thank you for clarifying.

I view Brian's reply to me as an abusive and non-constructive "critique" of my poem.

It was not a crit, nor was it educational.

It was intentional humiliation.
The reminder that he has the power to move it was bullying and an abuse of his authority.



I have nothing more to say.


Suzanne

[David]

Poetry Circle would appear to operate a good method by which ALL poems that are submitted start off in the same place.

If any movement does occur, it can only be up, not down!. And I quote –

Your work may be moved to the read-only Editors' Picks board or to the Featured Poems board by one of Poetry Circle's roving editors. Poems most recently moved to the Featured Poems board will appear on the front page of Poetry Circle.

By this method of drawing from a general pool, where everyone is obliged to submit their work, no one has to suffer the indignity of seeing their work moved ‘down’ to another board.

Some of our existing members are active participants at Poetry Circle and may wish to venture their own opinions on this matter.

On the broader issue of where to post: we have discussed this many times, and although the current system may not be ideal, despite much discussion we can see equal pros and cons of other methods.

I don't want to reopen that debate either, and none of the alternatives are perfect, but I think it must be undeniable that PC's system does at least avoid what must be the peculiarly humiliating experience of having a poem demoted, rather than (with fanfares) promoted. No? The mods become, in effect, editors, each of whom has the unilateral right to "pick" as many poems as they like in order to recognise particular merit etc. The worst that can happen to any poem, apart from being pulled apart by unfavourable comments, is that it gets ignored - an altogether less upsetting experience (although, as I can attest, one that is quite upsetting enough in itself).

[Ros]

I'm not fully conversant with Poetry circle's way of doing things - but presumably it needs every poem to be studied by a mod and considered for 'promotion'. Here, we'd struggle to do that - mods are often thin on the ground - so if a poem wasn't picked, was it because the mods hated it or because they just didn't get round to it? Sorry, sounds awful to me!

And down is quite possible: they've fairly recently had to start a 'Workshop' board, which presumably equates to our beginner board:
"2. Board editors can move poems here from one of the Submit your work boards if the editors feel the poems are not up to the standard of the site but may be salvageable in some way."

I wince at 'may be salvageable' - sounds harsher than we usually are!

Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick about the way they work.
Ros

Edit: plus, I've just noticed they have a 'rejected' forum. So they expect a certain standard before you're even allowed to post there.

As we've said, we've been over all this before, and tried to come up with something better - but there are always drawbacks. Our system isn't perfect, and the mods who implement it ain't perfect, but we're doing our best.

[Suzanne]

Thank you, David for your comments. It is nice that you took the time to thoughtfully reply.


I ask that this thread please be locked.

Should anyone desire further discussion on the broader issues, please begin a new topic.

Warmly,
Suzanne