A Seaside Town in winter

[camus]

The cobbled rise, the gradient exposé;
thrilling eyes, such unexpected expanse
such desolate energy.
The sea, sharp-paper-points,
the sky, swirling clouds of illness;
hoary ladies' matted hair.
The Pier, a dying insect,
shell frozen, legs cracked.
The solitary figure upon its back;
a man half mad with loss, searching
its splintered decks, for what…
The amusements know! they buzz
and ring like ancient trams – travelling
in circles, happy going nowhere, seeking
nothing. I seek a steel engraved plate, on which
I can measure time.

[Arcadian]

nice one Camus ,

much to like here

the descriptions melding into the narration , it is smooth and draws us in , we forget temporarily it is a description related by the poet .

also the "echoes" and rhymes, and the surprise in the end of the etching: the duality of the "seen" and the imprint on the mind; the picturesque scene leaving an indelible impression ( nicely worked )


arco

[camus]

thanks Arco.

"I seek a steel engraved plate, on which
I can measure time."

Refers to The Greenwich Meridian:

http://www.cleethorpes-online.co.uk/meridian.html

cheers
Kris

[k-j]

I thought there was some good and some bad in this one.

The first three lines could be improved I think. Didn't get "the gradient exposé" - I thought exposé in english was a noun, so this doesn't make much sense, unless you're using the french word for "exposed" in which case it still doesn't make sense. "Unexpected expanse" is a bit of a tongue-twister, esecpailly after "exposé", and it's not clear why the expanse should be unexpected - if you're at the seaside, don't you expect an expanse? Likewise, I don't think you make it clear why the eyes should be thrilling or what the source of the "desolate energy" is.

Lines four and five are great, the "sharp paper points" of the sea is a really fresh and arresting description. "Swiling clouds of illness" is strong but a bit vague - it could be pollution, or it could mean the clouds look green and pestilential, or it could just mean there are lots of germs in the air. Can old ladies be hoary? Not sure, for me hoariness is something more associated with 50- and 60-something men. If the matted hair belongs to the old ladies you need a ' after "ladies".

I love "the pier, a dying insect", and the chime of "back" with "cracked". I think you should make an effort to get more rhyme and half-rhyme in to this piece. The man "half mad with loss" perhaps sounds more serious than it ought to given that we don't know what he's lost - 10p, his car keys or his kid. Perhaps "frantically searching" or something even more detached would work better.

Nice jokey ! after "know". "Ancient trams"? I suppose it's all relative but trams aren't ancient in my book. The ending is just baffling because of the lack of context - I think you need to clarify this, probably change the title to something like "Greenwich Meridian, Cleethorpes". Otherwise there's no way the reader will get anything from the last two lines - unless your audience is the small subset of people who've been to Cleethorpes (plus Arco).

[Dreamburo]

The cobbled rise, the gradient exposé;

Yes I agree with k-j about expose. Wondered what was wrong with 'exposed'.

thrilling eyes, such unexpected expanse
such desolate energy.

...how about 'thrilling eyes surprised by/such desolate energy' ?

The Sea, sharp-paper-points
the sky, swirling clouds of illness,
hoary old ladies matted hair.

I'm not sure the use of capitals is consistent enough to be self-explanatory if only Sea and Pier get the treatment. Why not Sky?

'the sea paper-cuts the sky'?

I would get rid of hoary because it's a bit of a cliche when what you mean is old, which does very well. Or get rid of the old ladies and imply them with hoary matted hair?

The Pier, a dying insect,
shell frozen, legs cracked.
The solitary figure upon its back;
a man half mad with loss, searching
its splintered decks, for what…

This is very successful. Just suggest change of punctuation. ...searching/its splintered decks. For what?

The amusements know! they buzz
and ring like ancient trams – travelling
In circles, happy going nowhere, seeking
nothing.

Do you need 'seeking nothing'?

I seek a steel engraved plate, on which
I can measure time.

For all my suggestions, I think that what has gone before in this poem is very strong, with an original voice. But I think it peters out a bit at the end. The meridian is such an evocative thing - can you evoke a bit more of what it means to you in your description of what you are looking for?

Luisetta

[Minstrel]

I liked a lot of it.

the 'expose' thingy I read in a french context as a kind of irony, taking the piss out of the area. Very cynical. Very Camus.

Then 'unexpected expanse' works for me. As an inlander I would expect expanse at the coast, but not quite as much as there is when I actually get there. 'Desolalate energy' I also agree with, there's an emptiness devoid of anything except energy oversea.

'The Sea, sharp paper points'....cool. Conjurs a paper theatre type image.

'the sky, swirling clouds of illness,
hoary old ladies matted hair' I wasn't very keen on. I can see what you are getting at and the image works, but the phrasing doesn't. 'hoary' should relate directly to their hair. But isn't 'hoary' a great word in context with old women. (at least you didn't incorporate 'gods blue rinse'!)

Great pier image and the 'solitary figure on its back' line relates equally well to the image of the dying insect and the man wandering on its back.

'buzz and ring like ancient trams' agree with kj about ancient but no other crit on this section, thought it very good.
I also got sun-dial conection on first read ' I seek a steel engraved plate on which I can measure time'....self explanetory really. Trying to find a balance, a point of reference, in all the madness. Its grim up north.

Good stuff.

[camus]

Thanks guys, much to ponder, mainly simple answers: I'll mix and match.

KJ, Dreamburo

"Wondered what was wrong with 'exposed'". It sounded boring. I like Dave's explanation, I'll go with that.

"And it's not clear why the expanse should be unexpected - if you're at the seaside, don't you expect an expanse?" - Well KJ I'm always in awe of what is revealed just over the horizon, take a seaside town like Filey (which you don't know) - the rise is steep, then Bang, a wide "Expanse" of beauty, or in this case desolate energy gets me every time. I guess living in a "Grim up North" type of town, these things affect me more than people who don't, I figure it would for most in similar locations.

As for desolate energy I'll leave that to the imagination.

"Can old ladies be hoary?" Certainly can, I should perhaps remove the old.

The man "half mad with loss" perhaps sounds more serious than it ought to given that we don't know what he's lost - 10p, his car keys or his kid.

Imagination again. But the suggestion of madness says to me it isn't his car keys he's lost! Mind you the loss of Keys can drive one to despair on occasion.

"Do you need 'seeking nothing'?" Well it leads on to me seeking something, so the contrast or juxtaposition if you will seemed to work for me.

Ancient Trams - granted.

I don't know, paint by numbers poetry does nothing for me really, I'm not skilled enough at it, so I don't really bother. I would say though my punctuation lets me down most every time, so I'll review that, if I can.

Minst,

I think we're drinking from the same pot! That's not a saying is it? well you get what I mean.

As for Hoary, well I like the Whorey conotations, Eastbourne Ladies.

To sum up - I write about what I know, and what I see or perceive around me, of course that limits me, and the reader. Hey Ho.

thanks for the time guys, appreciated.

[twoleftfeet]

The Pier, a dying insect,
shell frozen, legs cracked.
The solitary figure upon its back;

- this image stood out for me. I pictured a dome (as well as the man, of
course) which made me think of spiders (again )

I liked the reference to trams - I imagined the machines in the arcade as Edwardian (or even older) made primarily from wood and metal
(I have'nt seen any like that for years). The Pier seemed like an
anachronism, and as out of place as a picture postcard photographed during a midwinter storm.

I thought the steel engraved plate referred to some kind of sundial
mounted on the Pier.

Nice one
Geoff

[kozmikdave]

I liked this a lot. I don't think I'd change anything. It reminded me of Devon. We used to take groups of biology students there from London. Fist time out of the smoke for many of them. Used to get some great comments as we barrelled out of the hedges towards the ocean.

The cobbled rise, the gradient exposé;
thrilling eyes, such unexpected expanse
such desolate energy.

Would certainly keep expose. - exposed has nowhere near the depth of meaning as expose - to me it means an opening up/revelation.


The Pier, a dying insect,
shell frozen, legs cracked. {biology camp indeed}

Works for me

Dave

[Dreamburo]

What do you mean by 'paint-by-numbers poetry'?
Luisetta

[camus]

thanks all.

Luisetta

"What do you mean by 'paint-by-numbers poetry'?"

To be honest I came to poetry via the forum format, and there seems to be a fixed format of critiquing. You must do this, you musn't do that, I'd do this, I'd do that etc etc. I find it limiting and annoying.

Don't get me wrong there are many flaws to my writing, and I welcome crit, just happened in this case I didn't really agree with much you said. That's another problem I find on many forums, the crits word is final!

Anyhow please don't let that put you off, disagreement is healthy.

cheers
Kris

[k-j]

there seems to be a fixed format of critiquing. You must do this, you musn't do that, I'd do this, I'd do that etc etc. I find it limiting and annoying.

I don't understand - that's what a good critique is, for me. One which takes the poem at face value and says what it thinks. What other kind of critique is there? What would be less limiting, less annoying?

One for the discussion forum perhaps.

[camus]

"One which takes the poem at face value"

Should poems be taken at "face value" ? Well I don't think so. Allusion, symbolism, metaphor, these poetic tools are surely not "face value" devices?

Indeed a discussion may help, I'm by no means sure of what I'm talking about, but I have an idea!

cheers
Kris

[Bombadil]

Oh, feck.

Move it to a discussion forum...


I'm with Kris. I don't like regementing. Or shall we say, suggested uniformity.

And disagreement is healthy. As long as it's a worthy one.

[Dreamburo]

I didn't really agree with much you said.

No problem with that.

That's another problem I find on many forums, the crits word is final!

I don't remember signing up to that as a deal. I certainly wouldn't take any crits of my poems as final, though I would be pleased that someone bothered to do it at all, take from it what I could, and ignore the rest.

Anyhow please don't let that put you off, disagreement is healthy.

There's a big difference between being disagreed with and getting snide dismissive comments back in return for spending quite a lot of time with something. So -- too late. I have better things to do.

Luisetta

[Bombadil]

Kris,

Are you Snide, and I Dismissive, or vice versa?


DB,

Stick around a while. You'll eventually love us for our bodies.


Cheers,

A.S.

[k-j]

Kris,

Are you Snide, and I Dismissive, or vice versa?

Leaving aside the snide, all of Kris's responses were by their nature dismissive. He dismissed every suggestion made. That is what "dismissive" means. It makes you wonder why he asked for responses, if he was only going to dismiss them all due to a supposed lack of imagination on the part of the reader. Hint to all writers: the reader is always right, especially when they take the time to read in detail and provide a reasonable critique.

DB,

Stick around a while. You'll eventually love us for our bodies.

This is patronising. Show some civility, don't be a dick. DB's crits have been first rate - like any reasonable person, she'll stick around (I hope) if the forum provides what it ought to - objective criticism.

[juliadebeauvoir]

Since you want to banter...
When are the 'readers' ever 'right'? Not to say that poets are always correct but I would like to think that readers and poets are in a synchronous relationship. Art being somewhat defined as an interaction between artist and the audience. I don't think the reader or the poet is the final say on how good the poem is. Ask Van Gogh if his work was accepted by his 'audience'.

I read over Camus' response to Luisetta's critique and didn't find anything offensive (snide...) in it as he responded (with grace) pretty much on everything she pointed out.
So I am not clear as to why she is offended--I agree with the comment 'poetry by numbers.' I've been to too many poetry sites where everyone thinks that art should follow 'the rules'. I have grown as a poet/writer here more than any other place. If you can't stand the critique back, or if you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
It works both ways.

[Bombadil]

"Don't be a dick..."

Take all my fun, why don't you?


I was just cracking fun, I didn't even read the crits, though they did appear to be pretty detailed. No (real) offense meant.

[camus]

KJ,

Life is too long for this petty squabbling, but more often than not I have learned from and admired your crit, you are good at it. That said I didn't agree with your comments, that's it.

Bye Luisetta.

[ccvulture]

It has your trademark jaded cynicism and frost, Camus - I dig the voice.

Cheers

Stu