v5
The Devil retorted
Oh, how lamb
For you to abhor
No bane of battle
Could null your war
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rally
Venture God’s favor
While more as I
Welcome that wager
v4.3
The Devil retorted
Oh, how lamb
For you to abhor
Not the bane of battle
Can keep you from war
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rally
Venture God’s favor
While more as I
Welcome that wager
v3
The Devil retorted
Oh, how callow
Save your abhor
The Tower of Babel
Assured your wars
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rabble
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
Had you been spoken for
v2
The Devil retorted
Oh, how callow
Save your deplore
Not the bane of battle
Can keep you from war
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rabble
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
Had you been spoken for
v1
The Devil retorted
Oh, how callow
Save your deplore
Not the Tower of Babel
Could keep you from war
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rabble
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
Had you been spoken for
No title (Retort of the Devil - revised)
Hi Mike,
Great poem and a good topic to tackle. I like the angles you have used to attack the subject matter.
There is great imagery here which I am coming to accept as standard from your poetry. You put these together really well.
Although I’ve read this several times and am getting lost at some points as to where the poem is heading. Refer below.
Great poem and a good topic to tackle. I like the angles you have used to attack the subject matter.
There is great imagery here which I am coming to accept as standard from your poetry. You put these together really well.
Although I’ve read this several times and am getting lost at some points as to where the poem is heading. Refer below.
MikeMac wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:07 pmThe Devil retorted
Good use of retort
Oh, how callow
Save your deplore
Not the Tower of Babel
Tower of Babel rhymes and is a strong image however is this the reference/ meaning you wish to convey?
Could keep you from war
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
excellent
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
again clear concise imagery
Yet those who rabble
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
Had you been spoken for
- has the Devil not already claimed the power elite in this poem? The “not” confuses this. I take that the rabble, poor and ‘whore’ all are knocking on heaven’ door (or the right path) while the you - (power elite/clergy) are spoken for by the devil. Might pay to review to see how to remove the negative to convey the message more clearly.
Like the imprint left, an effect on your being - beautiful, wonderful, succinct.
Hi Sid,
Thank you for your feedback! You’re right about questioning the Tower of Babel reference. I just looked it up (which I should have before) and found out it actually did the opposite of what I thought. I was under the impression God created it to unify human language so everyone could communicate. Instead he made people have different languages for daring to try and build a tower that reached heaven. Bummer. Need to change that now. Thanks for catching it.
The Devil is making the claim at the end that people are more like him than they are like God. Satan doesn’t become a main figure in the Bible until many revisions after its inception. He is not mentioned in Genesis, but is said to have been the snake in the garden of eve. This is debated among scholars. I presumed this allotted enough time for people to prove their moral failings before the devil became a staple of dogma. Thanks again.
Thank you for your feedback! You’re right about questioning the Tower of Babel reference. I just looked it up (which I should have before) and found out it actually did the opposite of what I thought. I was under the impression God created it to unify human language so everyone could communicate. Instead he made people have different languages for daring to try and build a tower that reached heaven. Bummer. Need to change that now. Thanks for catching it.
The Devil is making the claim at the end that people are more like him than they are like God. Satan doesn’t become a main figure in the Bible until many revisions after its inception. He is not mentioned in Genesis, but is said to have been the snake in the garden of eve. This is debated among scholars. I presumed this allotted enough time for people to prove their moral failings before the devil became a staple of dogma. Thanks again.
Mike,
I like the adjustment it reads a lot more easily (although unfortunately loses the added biblical reference.)
The end still baffles me a little, I’d prefer something pointing more clearly to the meaning such as:
“Pass heaven’s bridge
Unaware that they
were made in MY image”
Also when you amend / update your poem it’s always good to comment below so it brings it back to the front of the queue so others catch it. If it’s too far back not sure how many people scroll back that far.
I like the adjustment it reads a lot more easily (although unfortunately loses the added biblical reference.)
The end still baffles me a little, I’d prefer something pointing more clearly to the meaning such as:
“Pass heaven’s bridge
Unaware that they
were made in MY image”
Also when you amend / update your poem it’s always good to comment below so it brings it back to the front of the queue so others catch it. If it’s too far back not sure how many people scroll back that far.
Like the imprint left, an effect on your being - beautiful, wonderful, succinct.
-
NotQuiteSure
- Perspicacious Poster
- Posts: 3660
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:05 pm
.
Hi Mike,
having a hard time trying to move past 'deplore'.
It reads poorly, to me, (compare, 'retorted', 'build',
'decry' or even 'rabble' - though you may want to
check the etymology of the latter as it invites
some not too flattering thoughts).
'steeples' - used both literally and as a metonym
for Catholicism doesn't really work with 'phallic'.
And I get lost at the final couplet.
A minor point: having the title as a paraphrase of
the first line seems wasteful, why not something
to guide the reader?
Regards, Not
.
Hi Mike,
having a hard time trying to move past 'deplore'.
It reads poorly, to me, (compare, 'retorted', 'build',
'decry' or even 'rabble' - though you may want to
check the etymology of the latter as it invites
some not too flattering thoughts).
'steeples' - used both literally and as a metonym
for Catholicism doesn't really work with 'phallic'.
And I get lost at the final couplet.
A minor point: having the title as a paraphrase of
the first line seems wasteful, why not something
to guide the reader?
Regards, Not
.
Hi Sid and Not,
I agree deplore is a poor word choice. I’ll see what I can do about it.
Yeah, I really didn’t want to lose that biblical reference. Not a big fan of its replacement.
I looked the etymology of rabble. Not a very flattering word, indeed. Especially since I am speaking in terms of the Middle Ages. I’m a cartoonist by trade and, therefore, watch a lot of cartoons. South Park had used the word to represent the townspeople as an angry mob. They would shout “rabble, rabble!” This does not solve my etymology problem though. Thanks for looking that up, Not.
It appears unanimous that the ending needs work/clarity.
Thanks for your suggestion, Sid. I’ll keep it in mind for the next revision.
I agree deplore is a poor word choice. I’ll see what I can do about it.
Yeah, I really didn’t want to lose that biblical reference. Not a big fan of its replacement.
I looked the etymology of rabble. Not a very flattering word, indeed. Especially since I am speaking in terms of the Middle Ages. I’m a cartoonist by trade and, therefore, watch a lot of cartoons. South Park had used the word to represent the townspeople as an angry mob. They would shout “rabble, rabble!” This does not solve my etymology problem though. Thanks for looking that up, Not.
It appears unanimous that the ending needs work/clarity.
Thanks for your suggestion, Sid. I’ll keep it in mind for the next revision.
Revised - v3
I found away to reincorporate the Tower of Babel in a way I hope makes sense to the rest of the poem. The Devil is evoking the idea at the very beginning that it is callow of man to ever believe god was on their side to begin with. Thus, giving more credence to the last couplet. (?)
I still have not made a decision on the ending. It’s ambiguous, but makes the final claim I wanted it to. When the Devil says, “not before me,” it also means, “not before I became who I am through my interactions with man.”
Im hoping the poem reads from the devil’s perspective as:
You (man) are callow
Spare me you self-righteousness (outrage)
God is not on your side
You are more like me
I am your god
I like the clarity of your suggestion, Sid, but it veers from the rhyme scheme at the very end of the poem.
I found away to reincorporate the Tower of Babel in a way I hope makes sense to the rest of the poem. The Devil is evoking the idea at the very beginning that it is callow of man to ever believe god was on their side to begin with. Thus, giving more credence to the last couplet. (?)
I still have not made a decision on the ending. It’s ambiguous, but makes the final claim I wanted it to. When the Devil says, “not before me,” it also means, “not before I became who I am through my interactions with man.”
Im hoping the poem reads from the devil’s perspective as:
You (man) are callow
Spare me you self-righteousness (outrage)
God is not on your side
You are more like me
I am your god
I like the clarity of your suggestion, Sid, but it veers from the rhyme scheme at the very end of the poem.
-
NotQuiteSure
- Perspicacious Poster
- Posts: 3660
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:05 pm
.
Hi Mike.
The Devil retorted
- 'I'm struggling to envision the scene/exchange
that precedes this. What accusation/insult is this
a retort to?
Oh, how callow
- You're using 'callow' in the sense of naive, yes?
In which case why not say
Thou art callow ?
Save your abhor
- same objection as 'deplore'
Also the argument doesn't build: it starts immediately
with 'war' (mass death) then progresses to 'gallows'
(individual death).
The Tower of Babel
Assured your wars
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rabble
- 'rabble' still isn't working
(those who talk gibberish / knock heaven's door?)
and it might be mistaken for 'rebel'.
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
- would never have got your intended meaning from this.
(Why is the addressee supposed to have been outraged?)
Had you been spoken for
I think the use of language is just getting in the way,
too many of the word choices read like they're a
substitute for depth (of argument).
Regards, Not
.
Hi Mike.
The Devil retorted
- 'I'm struggling to envision the scene/exchange
that precedes this. What accusation/insult is this
a retort to?
Oh, how callow
- You're using 'callow' in the sense of naive, yes?
In which case why not say
Thou art callow ?
Save your abhor
- same objection as 'deplore'
Also the argument doesn't build: it starts immediately
with 'war' (mass death) then progresses to 'gallows'
(individual death).
The Tower of Babel
Assured your wars
You build your gallows
In sport of the poor
Beneath phallic steeples
That decry the ‘whore’
Yet those who rabble
- 'rabble' still isn't working
(those who talk gibberish / knock heaven's door?)
and it might be mistaken for 'rebel'.
Knock heaven’s door
When not before me
- would never have got your intended meaning from this.
(Why is the addressee supposed to have been outraged?)
Had you been spoken for
I think the use of language is just getting in the way,
too many of the word choices read like they're a
substitute for depth (of argument).
Regards, Not
.
Last edited by NotQuiteSure on Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ray miller
- Perspicacious Poster
- Posts: 7482
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:23 am
You've stuck with Save your deplore/abhor throughout. Wouldn't it be clearer to use something like Oh, how callow / For you to abhor?
The rest has very nice imagery. I particularly enjoyed the phallic steeples and whore lines. The last 2 lines I don't get and as someone suggested it would be interesting to know what is being retorted to.
The rest has very nice imagery. I particularly enjoyed the phallic steeples and whore lines. The last 2 lines I don't get and as someone suggested it would be interesting to know what is being retorted to.
I'm out of faith and in my cups
I contemplate such bitter stuff.
I contemplate such bitter stuff.