Beginners

[ray miller]

New to poetry? Unsure about the quality of your work? Then why not post here to receive some gentle feedback.

That's what it says on the tin and that's pretty much how it was formerly used. But not nowadays. Everyone who posts in Beginners is an experienced published poet. It's of no great import, I suppose, but I find it very strange and I'm curious to discover why this should be. Is it an excess of modesty? I should also add that the numbers on the board don't really warrant two sections at all.

[Macavity]

Valid questions Ray. I do remember a time when there was just one forum and no beginners/experience. The justification at the time was numbers/quality. I've never agreed with the split because I don't like hierarchical structures, dislike elitism, and this is what beginners/experience labels encouraged at PG. Now the site is called 'proleartthreat' I feel those divisive/exclusive labels are even more inappropriate. However, I do not have any powers to restructure the site. Of course, just my view and plenty sign up at PFFA which has a hierarchical structure. Perhaps I am influenced by my Comprehensive education Anyway, as you say 'no great import' and I certainly am not going to 'police' quality like Brian did ...my modesty knows no limits, as my rejection tray proves!

[Lia]

I can't help agreeing with both of you. When I first came here the two forums had already been created. Both were busy, but the net was smaller and forums were at the height of their powers.

Speaking in hypertheticals, what would it mean for the Beginners forum? Would it be put into an archive or would the two public forums be combined into one by date order... and is the latter even possible? I feel that any change to PAT should always be sympathetic to its roots so personally, I think that combining the two forums would be the better choice, if a choice were ever made.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of other members and what Kris thinks.

[ray miller]

I also dislike the split between experienced and beginners and have voiced my opinion on previous occasions to little effect. Interesting that my other question hasn't been responded to, so I'll put it another way - Phil, John, Felicity, Tristan and anyone else I've missed out, you're all very experienced and talented poets, so why do you post in the Beginners section? This is the kind of thing I think about when the football gets cancelled.

[Lia]

A few months ago now, but I posted a couple of times in Beginners, Ray. My reason was because I was trying out styles/forms of writing that I didn't feel confident in. But I have since realised that experimentation is fine on the main forum. We're here to play with language and push ourselves. Sometimes the poems will work, sometimes they won't...

But if I take a wild stab in the dark, the main reason why others are on the Beginners forum is to do with the level of critique. Beginners is a light crit forum... or, at least, that's what it was designed to be. As you quoted:

"New to poetry? Unsure about the quality of your work? Then why not post here to receive some gentle feedback."

For someone new to poetry and unsure about their writing, gentle feedback is the best way to build more confidence. But some writers, regardless of their experience, don't enjoy strong critique.

Thinking about the 'one forum' idea, the way round this would be to write 'Light' or LC (Light Critique) beneath a poem, if that's what the poet requires.

[Macavity]

I occasionally post in experienced, but mostly post in beginners. To mostly post in experienced would be to give the division between experienced and beginners a validation.

[ray miller]

I occasionally post in experienced, but mostly post in beginners. To mostly post in experienced would be to give the division between experienced and beginners a validation.

Well, to post in both gives validation to both, I'd have thought. The only authentic position is not to post at all, says Kirilov.

[Macavity]

A swing voter Actually, I've never voted Tory. Perhaps Dostoyevsky is right and I should abstain, but the will is weak said a Karamazov...on reflection I shift the poems to finishing touch anyway

[Magpie Jane]

I’ve been thinking ... could the “Beginners” section possibly be renamed “Beginners and Experimental”?

When you’re totally new to poetry writing, everything you try to write is an experiment.
When you’re experienced, and want to try out poetic pastures where you’ve never really been before, you’re likely to feel like a beginner.

Thus, a forum section for Beginners & Experimental may be a good fit for all. No hierarchy, but plenty of curiosity – and isn’t that what poetry really is about?
Aren’t we all beginners as well as experimenters? Don’t we all enjoy losing our way occasionally, wallowing in the mud, and feeling strangely rescued and strengthened by acknowledgement of the fact?

Jane

[ray miller]

Aren’t we all beginners as well as experimenters? Don’t we all enjoy losing our way occasionally, wallowing in the mud, and feeling strangely rescued and strengthened by acknowledgement of the fact?

Jane

This reminded me of my first acid trip, 1971, knocking on the door of a nunnery, asking for Vic. They didn't have any. I didn't see you around.

[Macavity]

Good points Jane. I like your thoughts on 'beginners'. Writing can get stale treading the same path.

[Lia]

Hello to you, Magpie Jane. I like your ideas very much. Spring-boarding from them, what about;


The Poetry Lab
For Beginners and Experimentation


Oh!
What if we kept with the essence of PAT:


The Poetry Threat
A Place for New and Seasoned Writers to Experiment



This does away with the words 'beginner' and 'experienced'. But what of the main board? I bet we would still end up with one public forum because really, all members experiment in some way with everything they write.

Lia

[CalebPerry]

I didn't read every word of this thread, which is normal for me these days, especially since I had my cardiac event and feel tired most of the time. So if someone has said this already, i apologize.

When the site was moved here, all the old posts were also moved, so no forum can be deleted without deleting posts (as far as I know). If a forum is renamed, will the old poems still fit into the new category?

Was there really a member named Brian who policed where people posted?

Phil, there is no reason for you to be posting in the Beginners forum. If anyone should, it would be, having had only two poems published -- but that's mostly because I didn't seek publication for most of my life.

Someone please tell me what Prole Art Threat means. The last time I looked in the dictionary, it wasn't there.

============

Okay, I decided to stop using my health as an excuse, and I read the other posts.

As one of you seemed to be saying (was it Lia?) we could have a "light critique" forum and a forum for more intensive critique, but I don't really care for that either. What it means is that the person critiquing must feel obligated to give light or heavy critique. So if I post a poem in the "heavy critique" board, and Macavity prefers to leave one short sentence, why should be have to dredge up more things to say if he doesn't want to?

[Macavity]

It is not the volume of feedback that is helpful, but the relevance.

I don't believe it is a passport validation for experienced by being published in ezines. As you have said before Caleb, many ezines merely reflect the editors own tastes. Publication in ezines is merely part of the fun.

It would be interesting to know what 'proleartthreat' means for Kris. For me it means being inclusive rather than exclusive, but that is just my opinion.

[Lia]

Hi Caleb,

To respond to the bit where you mention me. I was actually talking about the opposite. One public forum instead of two. But I was simply offering thoughts and ideas, nothing more than that. I hadn't addressed the critique that members would give on poems. I'm very much of the opinion that any length of response is fine.

With regards to a 'one forum' idea, I was suggesting that if a poet only wanted a light critique of their own poem then they could write LC (light critique) at the foot of it. This would be an indicator to other members that a more gentle approach was required.

I hope I've explained that better.

When the site was moved here, all the old posts were also moved, so no forum can be deleted without deleting posts (as far as I know).

That's what I was worried about. Can two forums be combined so all posts from both are saved?

[Macavity]

I wouldn't know Lia, that is an admin function, as is changing a forum name (the latter would seem a simpler task). I could edit the instructions from

This is intended to be a friendly (but serious) forum where inexperienced poets can post their poetry and get feedback from other members.

to

This is intended to be a friendly (but serious) forum where inexperienced poets can post their poetry and get some feedback from other members. Experienced poets are welcome to post here for lighter critique.

Thoughts?

[Magpie Jane]

Ray, I would've loved seeing you knocking on the nunnery door! ... And no, you didn't see me, 'cause I had already been arrested - after having knocked on another door that turned out to be the wrong one. Oh gosh. I even wrote a poem about it once. If I can find it, I'll post it. (I'm tempted to dedicate it to you.)

Lia, hello to you too! I prefer your first suggestion; I have a prejudice against using words like "Threat" when you're inviting someone in.

Like Caleb, I should very much appreciate if someone could clarify the meaning of "Prole Art Threat". Who or what is threatening whom or what? Eh?

[CalebPerry]

Lia, I wasn't able to double-check what you said when I was posting my comment because I was actually revising my comment, and the forum software doesn't allow a person to see the history when he or she is revising a post. Otherwise, I would have reread your post and changed my comment.

Prole Art Threat is apparently the name of a record album by some group or person. That's all I can glean from an internet search. I dislike the name so much that I think it should be changed, but that would involve getting a new domain name.

[Macavity]

https://genius.com/The-fall-prole-art-threat-lyrics

An anti-establishment song, which is fine by me, referencing class divides and left wing press.

[Firebird]

Hi Ray,

I post in beginners when I’m experimenting and/or am less sure about a poem, which is much of the time.

I agree. there’s no need to have two forums. It would be better with just one, or a forum for short poems and one for poems over 14 lines.

Cheers,

Tristan

[Magpie Jane]

Tristan, I think it's a good idea you have there: One forum for poems of sonnet length or less, and one for longer stuff.
This may also make life easier when you're not in the mood for lengthy reads (when you're having one of those "short-brained" days).