Coleridge or Shelley?

How many poets does it take to change a light bulb?
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:25 am

Which Shelley, you ask? Why, Percy Bysshe. Two poems follow. :)

Cheers,
John


Kubla Khan, BY SAMUEL TAYLOR COLERIDGE
Or, a vision in a dream. A Fragment.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round;
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!
A savage place! as holy and enchanted
As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover!
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced:
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:
And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean;
And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!
The shadow of the dome of pleasure
Floated midway on the waves;
Where was heard the mingled measure
From the fountain and the caves.
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw:
It was an Abyssinian maid
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight ’twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.


Ozymandias, BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:44 am

Both are iconic, both are impactful, but if I had to make a choice...🤔 Shelley's measured poem is meaningful and Coleridge's measureless poem is....🤔. The measureless experience for me😎
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:51 am

Hi Phil,

Very true! Shelley has I think a great point - "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair" being basically it, with its searing irony. He wrote it on a bet when I think the Elgin marbles had just reached ENgland and they all tried their hand at poems inspired by the topic. The rest are forgotten, just as Frankenstein was the product of a bet Mary Shelley won, the rest again being generally forgotten (Polidori wrote The Vampire). PBS was a republican atheist.
Coleridge OTOH doesn't HAVE a point. He just has his dream, and that's where the power comes in. How nice to write a poem without a point and have it be Kubla Khan! I kind of think he was doing a lot of opium at the time.

Next up: Herbert or Hopkins?

Cheers,
John
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:29 am

I feel Coleridge liked to plug into his subconscious store, fed by his vast reading, to unbridle the imagination as it were. The history of laudanum is a sad one. Coleridge and Wordsworth are such contrasting characters and poets.
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:33 am

Yes indeed, Coleridge's vast reading, as in the Biographia literaria. I've always found Coleridge has a really weird edge to him - Christabel, The Ancient Mariner - which he was just able and ready to access, not quite the same thing as being slightly mad, as I suspect Blake was. Or being at times rather boringly normal, like Wordsworth.

I seem to remember that Coleridge was the first person to say opium use destroyed his creative faculties. Like Wordsworth, he wrote amazing sutff young, then the flame went out.

Cheers,
John
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:41 am

One of my university assignments was to write an essay on Biographia Literaria, Coleridge's distinctions between Fancy and Imagination. A Nightmare Abbey task🤣
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:49 am

Oof! Now writing on Nightmare Abbey could have been a lot more fun!

I remember purchasing the Biographia around the time of my finals and trying to wade through it. That Princeton edition. It has a lot of 22-year-old scribblings from me in the margins. As I recall they do a good job of showing just what he took from Schelling.

I once had to write on Kant's use of the term "idea." My supervisor wrote down one entire page my favorite ever quote on any work of mine: "All this is very interesting. Unfortunately, it is wrong."

Cheers,
John
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:05 am

My fav tutor putdown, while dozing through a tutorial...'You're looking very interested Mr Wood, would you like to make a contribution' 😂
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:37 am

That’s a good one! Ah, the dry wit. 🙂

Cheers,
John
User avatar
Leaf
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 2550
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:42 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:14 pm

Greetings, John!

Here we are at last; well, the following day anyway. We prefer the Shelley here. The Coleridge puts me in mind of instances where people tell me about dreams they've had and although I nod and appear attentive my mind wanders, preferring its own meanderings. I had a chuckle at 'fast thick pants', so that was good. Coo explains these are pants you wear when you wish to make swift progress. Perhaps we should pop on a pair for reading long poems. And 'Abyssinian maid' is also pleasant, as there's a type of guinea pig called an Abyssinian; dear Ginny was one. They have tufty hair with jaunty little rosettes. So it's pleasant to muse on guineas performing (^v^)

The advantage of the sonnet form, and possibly, according to Mrs T, why I've had success with sonnets, is that the poet is encouraged to be concise and not to ramble. Mrs T finds most long poems terribly self-indulgent, it emerged during yesterday's chat. This sonnet has elements of nonsense to it, which is good. Coo wonders whether the legs might benefit from the fast thick pants of Coleridge. Anyways, these are our thoughts; and thank-coos (^o^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)
Morpheus
Prolific Poster
Prolific Poster
Posts: 664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:50 pm
Location: Lancashire

Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:34 pm

John,

I'm not really qualified to join your course because I don't feel I've read enough of any of the poets mentioned (barring Blake, which probably doesn't surprise you). And I find poetry analysis for analysis sake rather than workshopping to be quite a tedious academic exercise. I'm more comfortable with the mathematical and scientific.

I am familiar with Kubla Khan poem and it's a worthy entry on the playlist. My favourite Shelly poem is one of his more popular greatest hits. I like it more than I like any of the Coleridge poems.
Love's Philosophy by Percy Bysshe Shelley

The fountains mingle with the river
And the rivers with the ocean,
The winds of heaven mix for ever
With a sweet emotion;
Nothing in the world is single;
All things by a law divine
In one spirit meet and mingle.
Why not I with thine?—

See the mountains kiss high heaven
And the waves clasp one another;
No sister-flower would be forgiven
If it disdained its brother;
And the sunlight clasps the earth
And the moonbeams kiss the sea:
What is all this sweet work worth
If thou kiss not me?
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:58 pm

Greetings, Fliss and Coo! greetings, Morpheus!

Fliss: A worthy choice! I am in some sympathy with Mrs T’s point about long poems being self-indulgent; I also think they are easier to write, by and large, as in Pascal’s remark “Please excuse this long letter, I didn’t have the time to make it short.” Fast thick pants are indeed a highlight and do seem ideally suited to getting somewhere in a hurry. Abyssinian is a splendid word and could appear more in poetry. Coleridge for some reason doesn’t write really short pieces: I didn’t find any sonnets in my swift trawl. I am glad you found the Shelley entertaining, legs and all!

Morpheus: well, this I’d say is less of a course than a celebrity cage match, with the narrow appeal one might expect. But please don’t feel you need to have read these writers to have an opinion on their poems: wherever would we be then? So yes, this is less an analysis than a little game being played for the fun of it. Glad you enjoyed the Kubla Khan ,and your Shelley is very nice, in a very old tradition.

Cheers,
John
Morpheus
Prolific Poster
Prolific Poster
Posts: 664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:50 pm
Location: Lancashire

Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:25 pm

Hi John, sorry to distract a little bit from the intellectual discourse.

I guess the Shelly poem I like is not the most sophisticated and is more like old tradition as you say or even a Shakespeare imitation. Part of the reason I like it is I get fixated on what people who don't normally read poetry like to read and find accessible from any era. Love's Philosophy definitely falls into that category.

I have read Ozymandias before and I like the poem a lot, it reminds me of when you visit Luxor and see the Colossi of Memnon on the way to the Valley of the Kings after crossing the River Nile to the west bank (I guess you've been there too).
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:36 pm

Hi Morpheus,

Yes, that Shelley piece has definite appeal. Poems designed to get someone into bed go back at least the Romans, of course, if not to the Greeks. It is a venerable genre. :)

I've been to Cairo, not Luxor. Plenty of lone and level sand!

Cheers,
John
Morpheus
Prolific Poster
Prolific Poster
Posts: 664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:50 pm
Location: Lancashire

Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:04 pm

jisbell00 wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:36 pm
Hi Morpheus,

Yes, that Shelley piece has definite appeal. Poems designed to get someone into bed go back at least the Romans, of course, if not to the Greeks. It is a venerable genre. :)

I've been to Cairo, not Luxor. Plenty of lone and level sand!

Cheers,
John

Oh dear John, what does that say about me? :lol:

It's just as well that my wife has next to no interest in poetry so I can't claim to have used that trick to get into my current predicament.

I've been to Cairo too, the Pyramids of Dahshur were my favourite and the Bent Pyramid was free to enter and very eerie. It was nice to get away from the crowds around the more popular sites. I cruised the Nile from Luxor down to Aswan and got as far as Abu Simbel with Mrs Morph; no poetry was required for persuasion.

We also travelled a little bit in a dangerous areas in the middle of Egypt. I got as far as the Temple of Seti I at Abydos by armed convoy. There are hieroglyphics that appear to depict helicopters in that temple so it's subject to various conspiracy theories. 🚁 🇪🇬
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:04 pm

Sounds like you had an amazing trip! We didn't see an awful lot - that cluster of pyramids by the Sphinx and the national museum - but it was awe-inspiring already, and not really as I'd imagined. I'm glad to have been there.

CHeers,
John
Morpheus
Prolific Poster
Prolific Poster
Posts: 664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:50 pm
Location: Lancashire

Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:01 pm

John, did you see the sound and light show projected on the Pyramids of Giza with the Richard Burton narrative voice?

It made me think of Moonraker (which I think was actually set at Karnak where they have a similar show).

I just read the wiki on Shelley's poem and it was about the Ramesses II statue at Luxor. Shelley was recounting a fairly unique experience at the time when people didn't travel as often and Coleridge had to trip in his own mind.

I feel quite lucky to live in the modern age in some respects.
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:00 pm

Hi Morpheus,

No, we missed the light show - we were just there for an afternoon. Not long.

THanks for that info about Rameses. Shelley evidently saw an illustration of the Rameses head - he never made it to Egypt. Here's a Guardian article on the topic: https://www.theguardian.com/books/books ... %20statues.

Yes, the modern world lets us all travel there, but the result is the floods of people there these days. At Stonehenge, you can no longer touch the stones. A certain mythic aura is lost.

CHeers,
John
Morpheus
Prolific Poster
Prolific Poster
Posts: 664
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:50 pm
Location: Lancashire

Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:09 pm

John, I'd recommend this over Stone Henge any day and far less crowded:

https://www.historicenvironment.scot/vi ... ng-stones/

Also, on the Isle of Harris, the walk or drive over from the McLeod Stone to Luskenryre is as spectacular as anything you would see on Kaua'i. There was barely a soul in sight when we visited in August.

https://www.wildernessscotland.com/blog ... ce-heaven/
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:17 pm

Agreed, Scotland is great! Thanks for thel inks - my wife has never been and I keep planning ot make it. My method in touristy places is to get out at about 5 a.m. It works in Venice or Rome, for instance - dawn, and the town just waking up. Empty piazzas. In the crowd, most of these places are robbed of mana. Not the pyramids, interestingly. But the SPhinx was swallowed by the crowd.

Cheers,
John
User avatar
Leaf
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 2550
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:42 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:27 pm

jisbell00 wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:58 pm
Fliss: A worthy choice! I am in some sympathy with Mrs T’s point about long poems being self-indulgent; I also think they are easier to write, by and large, as in Pascal’s remark “Please excuse this long letter, I didn’t have the time to make it short.” Fast thick pants are indeed a highlight and do seem ideally suited to getting somewhere in a hurry. Abyssinian is a splendid word and could appear more in poetry. Coleridge for some reason doesn’t write really short pieces: I didn’t find any sonnets in my swift trawl. I am glad you found the Shelley entertaining, legs and all!
Thank-coos, John; we're sure you're right about long poems being easier and we like that remark by Pascal. We rather wish we had a pair of fast thick pants for work purposes! The word Abyssinian is indeed splendid, the Abyssinian guinea a charming breed. Perhaps Coleridge's mind lent itself better to writing at length. And yes, entertainment in Shelley (^v^)

Cheerie,
F & (^v^)
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:31 pm

There should be more fast thick pants. Think of how much we could get done!

Yes, my poems get long when I don't know how to end a quatrain, or don't take the time to find a solution.

Cheerie,
John
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:56 am

A Coleridge sonnet

https://www.coleridgememorial.org.uk/so ... ver-otter/

Of course, the word vision appears again🤣
jisbell00
Perspicacious Poster
Perspicacious Poster
Posts: 5623
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 am

Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:59 am

But of course! Very nice - thanks Phil!

Cheers,
John
Macavity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12281
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am

Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:48 am

Post Reply