Future of the Forum?

[camus]

I think I've come to the point, as it did with Nicola and Cam, where I don't feel I have the energy for this forum any longer. I'm tired, I've battled cancer, I'm still battling the aftermath. I have tried my utmost to keep this place afloat, but the lack of new talent and small handful of people contributing (the same old, same old) doesn't a thriving forum make. My one issue is the work required to keep the forum running for just a handful of people. It's a constant conundrum and begs the constant question - is it really worth it any longer?

It would take a big turn around, an influx of ideas, a concerted effort on behalf of existing contributors to get this place to where it really should be. It seems people don't have the inclination to do so, which is fair enough, lives must be lived and time is a difficult thing to find.

So, the hosting is paid up until October, obviously with kind and generous donations from various people from this forum. The question is - are people still interested/bothered about donating after October?

Any input/thoughts/ideas welcomed.

Cheers
Kris

[NotQuiteSure]

Hi Kris,
just to say thank you (for all your thankless work.)

I'd certainly be happy to donate towards the hosting.

Regards, Not

[camus]

Hi Not,

Thank you, that's much appreciated, as is your offer.

I've had one other reply from a long-term forum member saying they'd be happy to contribute, which makes me think people do want the place to stick around. Strangely conspicuous by absence are the people who use the forum the most, which i'll be perfectly honest, pisses me off. It's just ungrateful behaviour.

We'll see how it goes.

Thanks again
Kris

[Leaf]

Hi Kris,

I've only just seen this. Bearing in mind your health issues, I think it would be better for you not to continue. I've donated in the past, but I can't guarantee I'll be able to do so in the future. Presently I'm bedbound again, which means I'm spending more money on care. And yes, time has always been a factor for me due to the work schedule. I really hope you'll put your health first; I'm sure those of us who wish to keep in touch could find a way

Take care,
F.

[jisbell00]

Hi Kris,

I saw this but had missed you asking for donations. I will indeed donate if you want to continue and indicate how.

Cheers,
John

[CalebPerry]

I have very mixed feelings.

I once told the group that I could pay for five years of hosting fees without any difficulty, and I am still able to do that. But control of the forum has to leave Kris's hands and go to someone else. A year or two ago, a few of us offered to take over the forum from Kris. Kris apparently declined, since it never happened. Since then, my health has suffered a little, although my health problems are all treatable (cataracts in both eyes and atrial fibrillations are the main problems).

So we need to find someone to take over the reigns. Felicity isn't well enough, and I'm not sure I am well enough either. Is there anyone who will volunteer? Phil and John together perhaps?

NotQuiteSure would be a problem for me, as we had a falling out at one point.

It's a shame that so few women are attending the forum.

Besides Kris's hostility towards me, I have a couple other issues here. My poetry doesn't seem to be liked much, and I am not getting many critiques. Phil used to make it a point of giving my poems at least one short critique so they didn't slide off the forum without any attention at all, but he isn't doing that any more.

As much as I admire John's ability as a poet, I feel that he has sucked some of the air out of the forum by posting a poem a day. I sometimes wonder whether I might get more critiques if he were posting less, although I understand it probably doesn't work that way. Let me balance that out by adding that John joining the forum revitalized it to some extent. What's needed is balance.

So here's what I'm willing to do: I'll pay all the hosting fees going forward, one year at a time, as long as the forum is taken over by someone who doesn't dislike me. But you know, maybe I'm ready to fly without a net.

One more thing: The forum badly needs a new name.

[camus]

Fliss,

I'm sorry to hear of your health issues. If you can contribute, great. If not, absolutely not an issue. That applies to everyone.

Regarding my own health issues. I'm up and down. That's physically and mentally. The recovery from radiotherapy is dragging on...and that does affect one's ability to tackle various things, like massive forum updates! As mentioned my real main concern is/was do people actually care if the forum continues, it seems they do.

John,

Thanks, that would be much appreciated.

And so to Caleb,

Your self-centeredness never ceases to amaze me. You take a post about the future of the forum and turn it around to be all about you, that's fine a skill-set you have there.

The very last thing I'd do is hand over the forum. I was here from the very beginning and helped build it into a thriving community (I appreciate, that's no longer the case) I care very much about the history and the poems posted on here. So please get that out of your head, it ain't going to happen. As for your money, keep it. The very last thing I want to be is beholden to the likes of you. If you actually bothered to look into the name for the forum, you might understand what it symbolises? I think the name of the forum is the least of our issues regarding contributors.

Thanks again
Kris

[Morpheus]

Kris, I've been away all week so only just seen this message. How much is the hosting fee? I'd be happy to donate too like the others.

It's annoying how these storage costs creep in. I have a Google pixel phone and a couple of years ago I could get unlimited storage for photos on the Google cloud because I use their devices. Not anymore, the whole thing is a bit of a monopoly by big tech but I suppose servers do cost money to run and that's especially true now because of high energy prices. Inflation sucks.

I would put off any decisions about the future of the forum until you are well Kris. When I have a tough time, it's easy for depressive thinking to cloud my judgement so I try not to make any major decisions. Perhaps a break would do you good?

It doesn't take many poets to keep a forum going. Forums are dying out in general due to social media apps but I don't think social media does poetry critiquing particularly well.

One thing I really like about this forum is it's friendliness, it's not as demanding as other places even though the quality of the poetry and expertise on here is generally very high.

[camus]

I would put off any decisions about the future of the forum until you are well Kris. When I have a tough time, it's easy for depressive thinking to cloud my judgement so I try not to make any major decisions. Perhaps a break would do you good?

It doesn't take many poets to keep a forum going. Forums are dying out in general due to social media apps but I don't think social media does poetry critiquing particularly well.

One thing I really like about this forum is it's friendliness, it's not as demanding as other places even though the quality of the poetry and expertise on here is generally very high.

Some wise words there Morph, which I certainly agree with.

Thanks
Kris

[CalebPerry]

The "likes" of me?

It is not my imagination that you dislike me and have attacked me repeatedly, and always in stupid ways. In fact, I've never experienced anything like this in my life -- someone I don't know 4,000 miles away who hates my guts for no apparent reason. Remarkable!

Okay, so I've made my offer. Financially, I can keep the forum going indefinitely, but not if Vladimir Camus is here firing rockets at me. I could, in fact, bankroll a new forum with the old name (and with the same good software), but I don't have the energy to set it up.

[Leaf]

The Coo-mmunity returns, waving a white flag to indicate they do not wish to argue with anyone (*v*)

Fliss,

I'm sorry to hear of your health issues. If you can contribute, great. If not, absolutely not an issue. That applies to everyone.

Regarding my own health issues. I'm up and down. That's physically and mentally. The recovery from radiotherapy is dragging on...and that does affect one's ability to tackle various things, like massive forum updates! As mentioned my real main concern is/was do people actually care if the forum continues, it seems they do.

Thanks, Kris. One of my aunts has been coping with the aftermath of cancer for a long time; she had radiotherapy too.

Is there any admin stuff I could do to help? Just something Word-Bird and I could get on with quietly in the background. It might have to wait until I have less of the 'pain-brain', but the offer's there

[jisbell00]

Greetings, Kris!

Whenever you'd like donations, do let us know, and also how to go about making them! I shall endeavor to watch for your post.

Cheers,
John

[Lia]

Hello Kris,

I also care what happens to PAT and want to see it continue. I appreciate all you do and hope that you'll stay just where you are. I'm happy to chip in with the renewal fees. Is it the same link as before?

Lia

[ton321]

Sad to see so many health issues of the people here, but I'd be happy to chip in too if it meant the survival of this place. I've been here long enough to see how it's changed over the years.

I have to disagree with a point you made in responding to Caleb about the title of the forum. I think it needs something different. Low hanging fruit and all that.

T

[camus]

Thanks T, that's appreciated.

I have to disagree with a point you made in responding to Caleb about the title of the forum. I think it needs something different. Low hanging fruit and all that.

I think we may have to put this to a vote? Democracy and all that.

The main issue with changing the domain name, is, it's not just a case of changing the domain name! If only it were that simple. I would need to register another domain name, and then (as I did with the change-over from PG) migrate over the whole of the website, the files, the database(s) and repoint it all correctly, alas it's no small job and one I'm just not up to at the moment. I've taken on board a comment from Morpheus and I'm just letting the forum tick over, doing the bare minimum, It seems to be going ok, obviously there is room for improvement, but that's down to everyone...

Anyhow I'll be back in touch with my begging bowl in October.

Cheers
Kris

[jisbell00]

Just checking in. I'll for an October post!

Cheers,
John

[Firebird]

I’ll wait too for the October post.

Hope you are doing well Kris.

Cheers,

Tristan

[camus]

October has passed.

I'm looking at the forum, viewing the posts, I'm thinking - this place is dead.

If anyone is interested in keeping it going (please shout out loud) because I have little interest in keeping it going any longer (based on fucking lack of input from the people who should really care about this place)

I'm bored shitless with it.

Either step-up, raise your voices, or I'll be closing this place. I don't need the hassle, I really don't.

Cheers
Kris

Apologies for the rant - It's just very frustrating getting absolutely nowhere, and I've now had enough. Happy to help anyone willing to take on the main admin.

[camus]

Hi Guys,

Apologies for the outage. Entirely coincidental. I attempted to upgrade the theme and all the BBCodes stopped working, so I had roll back to a previous version.

That said, I think my time here is done. We need someone at the helm with a heap more energy, enthusiasm and determination, all of which I'm sadly lacking at present.

I'm happy to assign someone as main admin, BUT, is there anyone willing to take it on and willing to learn? Because that's what I had to do and I'm still learning.

I see no other way forward. There are a number of issues I have and to raise them would just be energy zapping and I don't have that energy to be zapped.

So thoughts welcome, but I don't hold out much hope!

Cheers
Kris

[CalebPerry]

Well, as I've said in the past, I can bankroll the site. As for becoming a partial owner, I now have non-stop afibs (atrial fibrillations) which make me tired. I would try to SHARE the responsibilities with someone, but that's as far as I could go.

Thinking that such a thing might be coming, I have been searching for a new forum, but for some reason it seems that poetry forums everywhere are failing. Eratosphere has become a more tense-filled and competitive forum. Pig Pen, which had a smart but obnoxious person running it (who has since died) is seeing very few posts now, and they are also experiencing a technical problem they don't seem to know how to fix. Many other forums are marred by the fact that they have very controlling owners (something I wouldn't be, as I have mellowed since I found my muse -- when I first joined Poet's Grave, I had written only about 30 poems in my whole life; that is now up to about 180 with about 160 of them being good enough to publish). One thing I've noticed on this forum is that Phil is posting less. Phil, bless his heart, used to make a point of posting on poems that no one else would post on, but I think that's over. I always post my new poems here, but my output varies. John Isbell, of course, is very enthusiastic and would, I think, make a good owner of the forum. But John, Phil and I are just three people. Felicity said goodbye a week or so ago. I haven't seen Lia for a while.

So, I wonder why critique forums aren't in vogue any more. Does anyone have any ideas?

One more thing is that Substack, a fairly new social media platform, has a couple poetry sites, but I haven't checked them out yet. I'll do that today.

Also, setting up a forum on Tapatalk isn't difficult as they provide their own forum software, but that software isn't as elegant as this software is.

Caleb Perry

(Why doesn't this thread pop to the top when it receives a new post?)

[camus]

So, I wonder why critique forums aren't in vogue any more. Does anyone have any ideas?

Social Media! I'd say without a doubt. This place started its decline when people started drifting over to Facebook. That and a natural decline in the regular poets. People simply stopped writing.

I'm at a loss really to know how to move this place forward. I'm happy to keep hosting it, but without a concerted effort, this place with stay stalled and I don't think we have the manpower to move it forward, if indeed it can be moved forward?

[CalebPerry]

Social media. Yes, that's it. It didn't occur to me.

I know poets who post all their poems on some social media site. Robert Lavett Smith, an amazing poet who, when he's writing, will knock out two perfectly rhymed sonnets a day, just puts them on his Facebook page. He doesn't feel the need for critique.

But most poets want critique, and most sites are not set up for critique.

I've been looking around at other poetry forums, and this site is actually more active than most of them. There are huge numbers of poetry forums out there which get one poem posted a month, a poem which no one will critique.

Talking about poetry forums vs. social media, aren't poetry forums a type of social media?

I wonder where Felicity is posting now.

[jisbell00]

Hi folks.

Hmm, perhaps I’m weird but I actively dislike social media and I find their effect toxic on civilization as such. That may be why I’m drawn to poetry workshops like PAT, though I don’t feel the need for others.

As to PAT‘s future, I’m unsure. Would a rearrangement draw new posters or commenters? I try now to comment on each poem posted, but that gets lopsided and they are far and few. If PAT can sit out the winter at its present sluggish pace, perhaps something will change. I like to be an optimist, but I don’t see any quick fix. Just those of us who do comment working toboump blood through the system.

I am also a technophobe, as one might guess, and useless at technology. But if I can usefully beydrafted for a purpose, I’ll give it a go.

I have no internet at present and was sent here by a friend. I’m typing on my phone.

Cheers,
John

[ton321]

My only suggestion would be to re-name it and hopefully gather new customers that way, but obviously someone else would have to take charge. You've done a great job in keeping this place going Kris, and it's much appreciated.
Poetry itself is a labour of love and I ask myself why i write it sometimes. It seems pointless and daft.
It's obviously the act itself, in silence and solitude, pen on paper, pushing fore-ward with the next thing you can only just imagine. If you knew what you were going to write it would be boring, but if you didn't have a clue it would be paralysis.
Lots of kind hearted people on here.

Tony

[CalebPerry]

Well, if this place folds, I'll have no place to go. Of course, given the fact that most of my poems get only one critique, perhaps that doesn't matter so much.

Over the years I have tried a huge number of forums and found them all wanting. In some places, all you are permitted to do is to praise the poems that are posted. Many forums are run by control-freaks who try to regulate everyone's behavior. Eratosphere used to be a great place, but they have now tightened up the rules and made it inhospitable for new members. I can't remember the exact number, but you have to post 12 or 15 "substantive" critiques before you can post your first poem. (There is another forum where you have to post 50 times before you can post your first poem.) Eratosphere has also become an angry place, more competitive than supportive. They don't like new people. And the moderators are always old biddies of the control-freak variety.

The reality, however, is that all the forums seem to be dying. There are forums that get one or two posts a month, and forums that haven't gotten a post in three months.

The last time I was there, Poet's Bay had a large and active group of members (one of whom was very talented), but again, the owner was a control-freak. It doesn't help that I seem to offend people even when I am trying to be nice.

Tony, I don't think a new name will resurrect this forum. I agree with Kris that social media has probably killed the critique forum model. Why that is, I'm not sure, since the format of most social media sites is not conducive to critique. However, I agree about the name. I assume Kris thought it was somehow cool, but I have never understood it. The name has been explained to me, but I still don't know what it means.

If Kris will hand it over to one or two other people, I think we could keep it going for the five or so people still participating. Who knows -- maybe the forum model will catch on again and the forum will thrive once again. My impression is that Kris would prefer to kill the place than let other people have it. Given that the forum was not his for most of its existence, I think that is the wrong attitude, and that he should recognize that he is not really the owner, but a caretaker.

One correction: Above I said that Substack has a couple poetry pages, but the place I was thinking of was Reddit. I haven't checked those pages out yet.